[apologies...this was supposed to post on Thursday. Then I got distracted by other stuff]
So, once again someone was asking questions about running "high level" adventures because they were planning a convention event for PCs of around 8th level...
Stop. That's not "high level."
I know, I know 8th feels IMPOSSIBLY huge...if you're used to playing Basic-system games where you encounter (and sometimes fight) godlings at levels 3-5. 8th must be super-duper stupendous, right? Your character might have an armor class of -3 and 60+ hit points, yeah?
Oh, boy.
No. 8th level is NOT high level. It is still "mid." Adventures geared for PCs of this level are "mid." Oh, what? You're going to come at me with Against the Giants and its listed level range of 8th-12th? Ever checked out the pre-gens for that one?
12th level magic-user, 13th level thief, 12th level cleric, 14th level fighter, 5th/8th level fighter/magic-user (equivalent of 9th level), 9th level cleric, 9th level fighter, 9th level magic-user, and 9th level ranger
Against the Giants IS a high level adventure and suggests NINE characters with an average level of 9th. Any 8th level you're bringing to the module is probably just a henchman.
I've discussed this in prior posts, but they may be hard to find; you can check them out:
Here's the TL;DR version: 9th level is the MINIMUM level needed to be considered a "high level" character, and honestly those L9ers are just the babies of high level play. In my book, you need double-digit levels to really be considered a lofty, high level character...most demi-humans need not apply.
- For fighters types of 10th level you should have a barony and the money to pay for a force of men (or bunch of followers). You are a beast in combat with magical equipment and multiple attacks EVEN IF YOU GET LEVEL DRAINED a couple times. You should be able to finish/survive most fights unless you get magically held or poisoned.
- For thief types of 10th level, your skills work more often than not, and you have no hesitancy in using them. Your backstab damage is at least quadruple and, coupled with a magic weapon, means you can inflict DEVASTATING blows from stealth. You have ability to read magic scrolls (both magical and clerical) and can act as an emergency caster of either variety.
- For magic-users, by 10th level you have access to multiple 5th level spells. You are NOT a high level magic-user if you cannot cast 5th level spells, including such fantastic numbers as contact other plane, passwall, teleport, and wall of force. These are GAME-CHANGING spells...if ice storm is your best spell, sorry: you're still "mid."
- For clerics, by 10th level you have access to multiple 5th level spells, most of which are fantastic, including commune, dispel evil, plane shift, and raise dead. If your best spell is still the 4th level cure serious wounds then, sorry, you're still "mid." A 10th level cleric has a chance to turn any undead on the board (55% chance against vampires!), and can fall back on dispel evil for those pesky demons and devils.
None of which, by the way, is "game breaking" stuff...at least not with the AD&D game. Attrition is a thing. Resource expenditure is a thing. None of these abilities are going to allow a party to "pwn" hordes of giants and dragons and beholders and mind flayers. None of these are going to be an "auto-win button" when it comes to creatures from the nether planes: demons, devils, daemons, slaadi, night hags, etc.
What these powers DO give the players are a fighting chance against the most powerful forces of badness in the game. What it means to the DM is that you're able to access MORE CONTENT when creating adventures for the players. Do you think its an accident that mind flayers can be encountered in groups of four? Or that fire/frost giants might number eight in a meeting? Or that magic resistance is based on casters of 11th level?
Characters aren't being awarded intelligent dancing swords just to fight orcs.
If you've been running a campaign for over a year, you should have PCs that are in the 9th - 11th range, assuming weekly games; if bi-weekly it might take two years depending on how long your sessions are. Gygax (in The Strategic Review) estimated 50-75 game sessions to reach these levels, which doesn't sound unreasonable...I often see big "jumps" in x.p. when a party, acquiring a treasure designed for seven, only make it back alive with three or four members of the group. These "jumps" offset x.p. lost for energy drain, keeping a nice ascending trajectory of advancement...assuming the players are learning and growing and not getting over their skis too often. If you run D&D in long form, campaign style play it is INEVITABLE that you'll see high level characters.
Best be ready.
; )
I agree with this 100 percent, with a tiny quibble that doesn't have any impact really on your message. I would say that "high level" conforms to the "Name" level of the class. So, for example, while fighters are high level at 9, Magic Users are high level at 11. But your example from Against the Giants does indicate that this is not necessarily the case.
ReplyDeleteAlso, wow the law of averages is funny.
I can totally get behind this. In my dad's games our highest level PCs were just getting to 10-12th before the game petered out. In my current game the only reason I don't have really high level PCs is my open table format allowing players to drop in and out and use a rotating cast of PCs. If I'd had a player stick to a PC they would definitely be high level by now. One of my players has 3 6th levels, and he's always bragging about how awesome his characters are, but that's because he's not seeking out tougher challenges, still going after the goblins and feels great for not facing a real challenge
ReplyDeleteHuh. Interesting. Although, if I remember correctly, your father ran his campaign using the Mentzer (BECMI) rules, no? I think the highest level we ever got to (back in primordial B/X days, i.e. BEFORE AD&D) was probably around 10th-12th level...there just wasn't much more one could do with those old Basic/Expert sets before the Companion and Masters sets were released.
DeleteEveryone thinks their 6th level character is pretty tough...until they meet an owlbear. My players have the opposite problem: they LOVE their main PCs and only want to play with them, BUT because they chose not-optimal class/race combos, they're bumping up against their max level caps (would have hit them already, except our opportunities to play have been so few and far between this last year). They all want to start playing new human PCs, but they can't quite bring themselves to give up their elves and half-elves...
Well in my dad's game we also witches PCs alot too. My younger brother got the highest level, a 12th level fighter because he only had 2 PCs he would play, where the rest of us explored multiple different classes. I think my fighter was the only that got into domain play at 10th level. I also had a 10th level elf with attack ranks. I think My sisters dropped out of playing before any of their PCs reached name level
DeleteHaving a rotating stable of characters definitely slows the rate of progression.
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