Chop! Poison (and Death Rays)

[this is "Part 1" in a series of getting rid of saving throws in my new fantasy heartbreaker. You can look at the formative thoughts on this weird concept here and here]

Let's start with the save versus Death Ray, 'cause it's easy. I don't have "death rays" in the new game, so there's no need for any such save. There are spells that'll rip your heart out of your chest, but no death rays. That's an easy chop.

*CHOP*

Now, let's move on to Poison.

So many amazing things you can learn from this internet thingy when you start doing research. Things like the distinction between poisons, toxins, and venoms. Things like which creatures of the animal kingdom actually have venom (there aren't all that many). Things like what various poisons will do to the human body (and what they won't do).

Paracelsus wrote that everything is a "poison" if taken in the wrong dose...but for our purposes, we're not worried about excessive eating or drinking. We're talking about things like snake bites and "poison gas" and giant spiders and the occasional poisoned blade or arrow.

Right?

Let's look at normal animals first...and we can probably skip the platypus and poisonous fish. Things like snakes, scorpions, spiders, and lizards are staples of the dungeon-delving genre. These creatures...real life animals...have venom that is capable of killing adult human beings. Capable of killing a human, but death is not a certitude...which is probably part of the idea behind saving throws. For sure, it's a retroactive justification for the idea. A successful poison save (or fortitude save) means the creature didn't inject enough venom to kill the hearty player character. Instead, they just take "damage."

But how much damage do these animals do in real life? A snake can bite you 20 times (through your boots if not plate armor), but it's doubtful such bites would severely dent your "adventuring ability" (i.e. diminish your hit points). Spiders only inject venom on an "attack bite" (against prey they consider potential food)...spiders have a "defensive bite" when scared or threatened that contains no venom (they apparently have superior control of how much venom they inject)...but would such a venom-less bite do even a single point of damage?

To me it makes more sense to model venom in terms of actual damage...if a normal (non-adventuring) human has 1D6 hit points, than D6 damage would adequately model the random possible deadliness of an envenomed attack. A "6" roll would mean a dosage capable of felling a strong human, and a "1" would be a relatively mild (if still painful) shot.

"But my fighter has 20 hit points, JB! How could my character ever be killed by a king cobra?"

Well, you my lucky friend, have simply become the beneficiary of "dramatic license." I believe I previously mentioned that my new fantasy heartbreaker is not about scurrilous rogues, but bona fide Heroes. And heroes just don't "auto-die" from the bite of a black widow.

How many poisonings can a halfling survive?

Okay, so moving onto to LARGER envenomed monsters...giant snakes and such...hey, did you know that the majority of snakes are of the "non-venomed" variety? Instead being constrictors who use their bite (and fangs) to hold prey while they squeeze 'em to death? The things you learn, really...

*ahem* The venom from larger monsters can be extrapolated from the way we model normal animals. A giant viper, might have fangs the size of daggers (and inflict similar damage from a bite) and inject a larger amount of more virulent poison...doing more damage.

Because that's what poison does to humans...it damages them. And if it damages them enough, it kills them. That's pretty easy to model with hit points of damage.

Remember the origin of the poison save? A hypothetical "giant spider" in Chainmail that took out a piece that failed its 2D6 roll of 8+. In Chainmail, there aren't any "hit points"...you're either removed from the board, or you're still active. D&D (and its descendants) have done away with the one-shot-one-kill of Chainmail and instead provide individuals with hit points. Use 'em.

[also remember that Chainmail's giant spider doesn't poison anything but the rank-n-file pawns, instead melee-ing like a lycanthrope when engaged with other fantasy characters: heroes, wizards, and the like]

But what about reduced capability? Getting the shakes from that rattlesnake venom and whatnot? Didn't DND3 do a great job with that ability damage shtick?

Well, first off notice that the older editions don't really worry about this "reduced capacity" nonsense, at least with regard to poison (other than shadows, I don't think there's a monster in the core B/X books that reduce ability scores, though I may be forgetting something). Reduced capacity can be reduced to "color" just like any other wound ("that spear attack is dripping blood...you're walking with a limp now...your head really hurts after that orc clubbed you; might have a concussion"). It doesn't need to result in an actual mechanical penalty. The game is hard enough (well, without Monte Haul magic gathering and superhero-like feats and abilities)...but even if it isn't, what's to say that when the shit hits the fan and the PC's ass is on the line, he/she won't overcome the "shakes" of the poison or the pain of the wound. Your character will feel awful for hours, but in combat situations you pull yourself together, juicing on  adrenaline and your own heroic grit.

You don't need penalties.

Toxic plants, envenomed blades, and poisoned needles can all be treated the same...you're introducing a foreign substance into the character's body and your body is going to take damage as a result. Hopefully you haven't been reduced to a shambles by an encounter with troglodytes or something, because if you've already been beat to hell that little belladonna sprig might push you over the edge.

Poison gas? Well, what's it do? Is it some sort of nerve agent that kills you? Or (my son's favorite superhero trope) "sleeping gas?" Or is it some sort of medieval tear gas equivalent? If it's non-lethal and you spring it, then you should face its effects. If it's lethal (nerve gas and such is incredibly lethal) then maybe it shouldn't be in the campaign (*ahem*).

But assuming it makes sense to include such a lethal trap, then on a case-by-case basis you might have a die roll to "save." Not to resist the poison, but a chance to hold one's breath when the trap is released. Heck, treat it like an encounter: roll for surprise. Characters that aren't surprised can have the chance to hold their breath (smart players will probably volunteer to do just that) and retreat from the area. Give the thing a range of lethality (so PCs on the outskirts might not be wiped out). If the denizens of the area are aware of the trap (because they created it/set it themselves) they probably have some sort of antidote lurking around (and nearby) for any such accidents.

You really don't need this saving throw.

*CHOP*

Poison - One More Time

I got an email from Grey over at Pen & Sword regarding my recent poison posts. He had some interesting ideas himself on how to handle poison in the D&D game, but once again stated for the record how much he hates the "instant death" aspect of poison.

Okay...let's talk about this for a second.

If a person is killed by poison, it takes only a cleric with the 4th level spell Neutralize Poison and the 5th level spell Raise Dead to bring the poor sap back to life. If you're playing B/X and your cleric can get to the victim within 10 rounds, all you need is the 4th level spell. All clerics have access to all spells, so long as they have the ability to cast a particular level of spell.

So, what about petrification?

It may not be an auto "kill" but it takes your character out of the game just the same if you fail your saving throw. Does this mean you folks that prefer D20 don't use medusae, and gorgons, and basilisks, and cockatrices, etc.?

And the only way to recover someone from being turned to stone? A 6th level spell that your magic-user might or might not have in his/her spell book.

Is petrification somehow more "fair" than poison? It seems like a more dangerous proposition to me, seeing as how it makes a player sit out 'cause their character is stoned (and not in a good way). And as far as I can remember, most characters' saving throws are better against poison than against petrification.

So give me a break. Instant kill from poison is NOT what people are complaining about, really. It's using poison to excess.

Like alcohol, poison should be used in moderation...not "oh no, make a poison save against the locked chest AGAIN." Not every lock has contact poison spread on it. What? You think some castle lord or wizard has time to re-apply that stuff (oh-so-carefully) after every time he opens his chest to admire his loot? Think again.

A few monsters are poisonous...snakes and spiders mostly with a couple others (the aforementioned medusa and the dastardly purple worm) having much larger worries than their poisonous attack. And those snakes and spiders have to hit you first before forcing the save...in effect giving you a double save against poison, where the first save is made using your armor class.

So please folks: leave the poison in. At least don't hold it up on such a pedestal of doom when there are so many other dangers (like a vorpal sword wielding fighter) to cry about.

Jeez!

; )

Poison (Final Thoughts)

Had a chance to review both the Little Brown Books and Holmes regarding their take on poison.

Holmes doesn’t include neutralize poison in his spell list…no surprise, really when you consider no one makes it past 3rd level. Meanwhile all monsters with poison attacks seem to be of the instant variety…snakes or spiders or medusa, if you blow a poison save in Holmes you’re dead. This certainly fits with the high mortality rate of this particular edition.

[I’m going to say a word or two about Holmes elsewhere…it deserves its own post]

The LBBs poison is all of the “instant variety” as well. However, the LBB DOES have neutralize poison in the clerical spell list. However, similar to AD&D neutralize poison will NOT save you if you’re already poisoned (i.e. DEAD)…as with AD&D there is no ten round “grace period” of writhing in one’s death throes during which time an antidote might be administered.

However, there’s no “Slow Poison” either…which means that poison is much more deadly in OD&D than even AD&D.

When viewed through this lens, I can't help but hypothesize that Slow Poison was a “fix” instituted for AD&D. This appears to be the case if we review the chronology:

#1 OD&D: Poison kills instantly. Neutralize poison can only detoxify objects, not “cure” poisoned individuals.

[interestingly, OD&D’s neutralize poison is the only version with a duration: 1 turn. This means that after ten minutes the item becomes toxic again? So even if you “de-poisoned” a corpse and raised it from the dead, it would need to make an additional save ten minutes later? Poison isn’t just deadly, it’s continuous and permanent with no means of curing AT ALL!]

#2 Holmes D&D: Poison kills instantly. No neutralize poison because clerics only go to 3rd level.

#3 AD&D: Poison kills instantly. Neutralize poison only detoxifies. Slow poison (a lesser spell) keeps individuals from dying until that poison can be neutralized.

#4 B/X: Poison kills ten rounds after taking effect; i.e. a person blows their save and poison “goes off” instantly (giant snakes, purple worms) or after a delayed period (medusa bite, giant spider). “Going off” means the 10 round timer starts running. Neutralize poison cast within that 10 round span saves the victim, otherwise they’re dead. There is no “slow poison.”

#5 BECMI: Continues B/X.

#6 AD&D 2E: ???

#7 DND3+: Poison is nerfed of its “instant kill” effects.


Now, since I started playing D&D with B/X where “neutralize poison” actually cured individuals, I just carried that “cure” assumption over to my AD&D playing (I was 11 years old…give me a break!). In fact, the ONLY time I can recall using Slow Poison at all was when running the 1980 tournament module C1: The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, in which Slow Poison figures prominently to the plot (interestingly, a plot that might seem to break with the use of NP…or not. I don’t remember…I know that more tournament points were awarded for casting Slow Poison).

Okay, I think I’ve written all I can on this particular subject. I know some people consider “instant death” effects to be a bit “un-fair.” The way I look at it? Getting chomped by a T-Rex or swatted by a fire giant and ending up with 0 hit points makes you just as dead. D&D is a game about people risking their lives (and often finding death) in pursuit of “fantastic treasure.” Dead is dead is dead…and D&D at least gives you some creative options for escaping death, INCLUDING spells like raise dead and neutralize poison. This is why I never sweated offing my players (we always found a way to “bring back” the ones we liked)…”killer DM” though I may have been, I was a always a softie when it came to cheap resurrection.

After all, I see death in the game as a penalty (for both bad luck and poor play) but it shouldn’t be a penalty that stops game-play completely, right? ‘Cause if play stops, well…so does the fun!

So anyway I always liked poison…and truth be told it rarely killed anyone in my games. Hell, people get saving throws after all, right?

[case in point: when I was playing the cleric in our B/X on-line game last year, I went toe-to-toe with a giant spider while the other party members…um, were they cowering? No…I think I was just off exploring a cistern by myself or something. Anyway, the creature only hit me once or twice before I was able to squash it…and I made all my saves. Sure I was sweating the prospect of death a little bit…but at 2nd level you’re nearly as likely to be “instantly killed” by a good damage roll from an orc or ogre. Poison? Eh – no big deal]

Still, of all the versions of poison across editions, I do prefer the B/X. It makes more sense, it’s simpler, it’s fun…and there’s no confusion between slowing and neutralizing poison.

‘Course, when you think of poor Black Dougal writhing on the floor, foam coming from his mouth as his nervous system shuts down…perhaps still able to watch Fredrik the dwarf clean out his pack as his eyes glaze over…you can’t help but think his buddies were even bigger shmucks than you ever imagined. Couldn’t Sister Rebecca at least cover the poor guy with a blanket to ease his last few moments of suffering? Sheesh!

; )

Poison (Redux)

Only AFTER I posted this morning's post did I figure out exactly WHY I had been so bold as to say poison doesn't instantly kill you.

It's in the rules.

That's right, but you have to actually get to it in a roundabout way. Neutralize Poison, the clerical spell found in the Expert rules can save a person who's been poisoned, REVIVING them (Cook's words) so long as it is used within 10 rounds of the failed poison save.

So let's break this down:

- Clearly Neutralize Poison, a 4th level spell, does NOT raise someone from the dead; raise dead is a 5th level clerical spell, after all. Ergo, we can infer that the character is NOT deceased.

- And yet it's pretty clear that a person that gets pumped full of giant rattler venom or stuck with a purple worm sting is instantly out of action (unlike a bite from a medusa or a giant spider, both of which take many minutes to take effect). "Dead" is actually the term used in the monster description, but since we've established Neutralize Poison doesn't raise the dead and yet revives a poisoned character within ten rounds, well...I guess it's safe to say the poisoned victim is "dead to the world," at least.

I can't tell you how happy this makes me. First off it justified my earlier poison clarification in the B/X Companion. But second off (and so much more fun!) it means any character that fails a poison save is writhing on the floor, shaking and shivering in agony as poison courses through their veins!

Really...how cool is that?

All you whiners out there who don't like instant death? You've been given a reprieve! Play B/X or BECMI and at least your character has a chance of survival even after failing that D20 roll. Maybe your DM will take mercy on you and allow a fellow player to "suck the poison out" even if your party isn't carrying that O-So-Useful neutralize poison spell.

Oh, and just by the way...one more reason why B/X is the coolest. This little rule? Doesn't apply to AD&D. Neutralize poison can only be used to "de-fang" (so to speak) toxic critters. Hell, being poisoned by a medusa or spider spells instant death as well, per the AD&D Monster Manual, none of this (more realistic in my opinion) waiting on the poison to take effect. You are DEAD, pal.

Of course, what's the use of something like Slow Poison, then? Well, interestingly, this particular spell, a trifle ungracefully I'm afraid, somewhat mimics the B/X version of neutralize poison, basically extending the life of a character that's just been poisoned, possibly in the hopes of neutralizing the venom. Here's the dumb-dumb part (in addition to requiring a double-spell combo to heal a single poisoned wound): instead of giving a person 10 rounds to cast it, slow poison can be case within 1 turn per level of the caster.

How does this even make sense? The toxicity level of the poison is determined by the caster rather than the creature? If I'm a 7th level caster (spell must be cast within 7 turns) it takes 70 minutes for spider bite to finish someone; if I'm 12th level it takes two hours? Ridiculous!

Well, anyway, I'm still happy I'm playing B/X (and triply happy I don't have to keep track of lost attribute points for poisons, thank you very much). As with many things, I think the B/X crew got the poison rules nice and tidy.

[I'll have to check my LBBs later to see if this was 'ported directly from OD&D or not]

Cheers!

So Has Anyone Else Noticed (Poison)

So in the monster section of my Companion, I was doing a little editing 'cause I realized I had made a note about POISON that the effects of a blown save did not generally equate to instant death...that a failed save could result in shaking and shivering for a few rounds (and thus perhaps allowing an opportunity for a cleric to cast neutralize poison, or for some form of anti-toxin to be administered).

I edited this because it didn't jibe with my overall idea that the Companion doesn't change the Basic and Expert set rules, but only supplements (i.e. adds to them). I'm not, for example, changing the cleric's low-level spell list or giving energy drain a saving throw. If DMs want to house rule such things, they're totally allowed to do so under the letter of Moldvay's Basic Set. It's not my place to do anything but compliment these rules (and add some extra OPTIONAL rules).

But then, as I read through the monsters in Moldvay's Basic set last night, I noticed (apparently for the first time since I didn't remember this AT ALL!) that many of the monsters with poison attacks...including the medusa and giant spiders...do have a certain period of time before poison takes effect; sometimes several ten minute turns even!

Wow...how the heck did I miss that?! I always found it bizarre in play that there was this cleric with the neutralize poison spell, and this attack form (poison) that instantly killed players...I mean, when is the spell supposed to be administered? Does it perform a kind of "raise dead" on poisoned characters? By default I usually allowed it to be case within one round of poisoning to actually neutralize the venom (I think that's what I do, anyway...it's been awhile since I can recall such a circumstance occurring in game).

Apparently, I should read my monster descriptions a little more carefully; obviously, Moldvay was a sharp guy (I don't think the Monster Manual provided "delayed" poison, but I'll have to check that later) and I, personally, do not know B/X quite as well as the back of my hand like I thought.

More on this later (perhaps).