Abstract magic systems can be a bit overwhelming for
players used to more traditional (spell list type) magic systems. Plus it can
just be tricky to provide the game information to know what is and isn’t
possible…what fits within the scope
of the game. To off-set this, you find many abstract systems will include a
certain number or specific, named spells for players to choose. Ars Magica, for example, has each mage
select a certain number of specific, named formula (spells)…though the presence
of these spells does not prevent a character from using spontaneous magic or developing new formula of their
own.
On the other hand not all abstract systems do this. When
playing Dresden recently, my pregen
character simply had “air evocations” and “water evocations” and I was left to
my own creativity in determining how this magic worked. For me, this provided a
lot of freedom of expression and my character was damn effective…however, the
other mage player ended up “sitting on the sidelines” most of the time, only
using his magic in a reactive fashion
(like offsetting the antagonist mage’s magic), despite having more raw power
than my own character. Abstract systems don’t work for everyone.
But throwing a giant list of spells at players and saying
“choose” can be at least as over-whelming as creative freedom. The lists in D&D and other systems
contain hundreds of spells…how would a new player be expected to choose their
spell “inventory.” Usually, the offset to this is to limit access so that
spells are digested in chunks: a 1st level magic-user in D&D
only needs to worry about the magic-user spell list, and only needs to select
from the 1st level spells. By the time the character reaches 3rd
level (which might take weeks or months) it can be presumed that the player is
fairly familiar with the level one spells and is ready to move onto to spells
of the 2nd order of magnitude.
[my guess is that
limited spell access in D&D has more to do with “game balance” and that
particular game’s cosmology, but it DOES provide a mechanical way to introduce
players – over time – to a gradually expanding content. Anyone who’s ever tried
to start a “high level campaign” from scratch will know how painful it can be
for a player to create a Start-at-10th-or-12th-level
magic-user because of the time spent choosing spells]
On the other hand, some games with specific magic systems
grant “full access” but simply limit the total number of options available to
the player. A sorcerer in 1st Edition Stormbringer has the possibility of possessing every spell I the
book (especially Melniboneans or the priests of Pan Tang)…however, the total
number of spells is limited to summon
elemental, summon demon, summon elemental ruler, summon beast lord, and summon demon lord. Yes, there are four
different elementals and six different demons meaning the total number of
spells is 13, but as the mechanics for summoning a fire elemental or water
elemental is exactly the same (as is the summoning of an attack demon or a defense demon, etc.), it’s hardly a huge amount of information that
needs to be digested by the new player’s brain.
For the “introductory” game I’m talking about, I find
myself torn between the two possible types of system as each has a number of drawbacks.
Abstract System
- Requires a creativity that might be hard for a new player
(aimed at kids, remember?)
- Has the tendency or propensity for making mage
characters too effective, shifting
focus and upstaging other characters
- Can be a bitch to design and explain/write (I’ve tried
my hand at this before, more than once)
Specific System
- Can be a long process (with regard to time and page
count) creating all inclusive “spell lists”
- Limits player creativity somewhat (I didn’t really want
to include “spell research” rules)
- Not sure it works with the themes I originally
discussed, unless I open access to the whole “spell book” (thus risking
over-whelming the new player).
I will say that I find the idea of doing an Ars Magica Lite really distasteful. For
one thing, Ars is already quite well done. For another thing, I’ve found Ars mostly unplayable as an adventure-oriented
RPG (which is kind of the point of my game). Plus, this game ain’t going to be
any kind of “historic fantasy” game…I already did that with Five Ancient Kingdoms.
But the system I was dreaming up before…a riff off B/X, natch…welp, now that I’ve been thinking
and mulling it over, I can anticipate some possible problems. What I wanted to
do was base spell knowledge (i.e. spells known)
on a combination of INT, character level, and age…regardless of spell magnitude. However, that means providing
access to the whole spell book – which might not be too bad if I limit the number of spells in the game, but I wasn’t
thinking of something as small as Stormbringer.
More like B/X with 60-70 spells spread between five and seven orders of
magnitude.
I think…I think
that what I need to do is consider a few things about the game before I
actually start working on the magic system. I mean, I’ve got the basics in
mind, and I should still be able to write it up…getting the geezers I want, at
least in a house-ruled type B/X game. But I want to take a few moments to think
about something someone brought up a little bit ago.
In fact, it might require another rambling blog post to
address.
; )
I already have players (3.5) who like to use all the combinations available to build a 1st level character than can easily kill most 5th level NPCs.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I'd be interested in an "Abstract Magic System." From your description, I'd have 1st level Wizards designing Fireballs that do 10d8 worth of damage.
A little hyperbole, sure, but you don't know my players.
Obviously it doesn't exactly work that way MS, but more to the point, it does prevent everyone and their sister from beginning the game with the same (or largely similar) spell suites.
ReplyDeleteMany abstract magic systems, like Ars Magica For example, have a series of parameters, checks and balances that prevent the "1st level - 10d8" sort of situation you suggest.
Instead of abstract I tend to use the term 'open-ended' to describe these systems.
Thanks for the clarification, BA. My players are a bit "nuts" that way. They sometimes find it hard to understand that even "20" 1st level characters have no business attacking an Adult Red Dragon, must less the six of them.
DeleteWell, two of my players, anyway. LOL
Another trade-off between abstract vs specific magic systems is time. You mentioned that it can take ages for players to choose spells in a specific magic system, but this is more like preparation time -- when it comes to actual in-game time it's pretty simple, "I cast magic missile", or whatever. The trouble (in my experience at least) with more free-form systems is that the time racks up at the table during the action, as players juggle the various parameters and options of what kind of spell they're allowed to construct. This, for me, is the main reason I dislike such systems.
ReplyDeleteAh ha! Something not previously mentioned, or I missed it.
DeleteThanks, GN. That could really slow a game down. My players can't be bothered to do background stories for their characters, they would never take the necessary time to generate such information on their spells before game time.
- Requires a creativity that might be hard for a new player (aimed at kids, remember?)
ReplyDeletein my experience kids have no problem at all with the creativity needed for an abstract magic system.
show a young, inexperienced player a spell list and he will be bored and/or confused. tell he him he can cast any spell he can think off involving fire (but you as dm will determine how powerful these spells will be, how much time he will need and so forth) and he will be thrilled.
@ Shlomo:
ReplyDeleteI won't argue the creativity of children: I've seen it first hand in B/X games. But there's a difference between mentoring a child (with you, acting as DM, and doing all the behind-the-scenes "work") and giving a child a rule book and saying, "figure it out." As a nine year old, I had no problem understanding Basic D&D; trying to figure out Dresden would have been a whole different story!
i realise this and i am interested to see how you will get around that problem.
Deletejust wanted to point out what kids prefer. it's up to you to present it in a way they can figure out. ;)
making a book that kids of today will want to pick up and use (without a mentor) by themselves will be tough.
I agree.
DeleteI believe that "pros" and "cons" are being discussed and am, myself, interested to see how you work it out.
I hope you'll keep us abreast of your game's progress in this regard.