It's early in the morning, and I have a couple hours before I have to get the kid up for his cross-country training, after which I need to go down to the court house to work on...just sad, sad shit that I don't really want to do.
But it's sad shit that I have to do, unfortunately. The last couple-three days would have been wonderful, wonderful summer days spent with my family and our friends...except that I have this serious stress hanging over my head, a cloud of poison that just taints the joy in my life. To be brief: I need to sell my (dead) mother's house in order to wrap up her estate (I'm the executor) but my brother is refusing to move out (I allowed him to stay there while we cleaned it, since he's a hobo) and now is determined to fight me in court. He's a stupid asshole without a legal leg to stand on, but he's just intent on dragging this out as long as possible, making it as time consuming and crappy as possible.
*sigh*
So, I'm up this morning, because this is the kind of stuff that wakes me up at 5am and doesn't let me get back to sleep. And while sipping some coffee and checking through Ye Old Email, I saw a reddit post about some kid (a 20 year old) who believes he's discovered that one of his players (another kid: 18 years old) is a "Neo-Nazi" and wants to know what he should do about it.
[long, long pause]
There are many humans in this world that I'd prefer to not hang out with or have at my dinner table. For all sorts of reasons. I mean, for a LOT of different reasons, not just matters of "political ideology." There are plenty of people...even people I know, even family members...who I simply have little to nothing in common with and that generate "nothing much" of interest to me and whom (I'd assume) have little interest in what I might have to share with them.
'Course, that's generally a false assumption...I get dragged into social settings with people I don't want to hang with all the time (this is usually my wife's doing) and...me being me...I usually find something to have a conversation with them, that's a bit better than what the weather is like this time of year. It's not terribly hard (for me, at least) to dig a little deeper under a person's surface facade and find some common ground, some place where we can meet and exchange ideas.
But while it's always "worth the effort" to find commonality and make connections with our fellow humans, a lot of times that 'connecting' is the ONLY thing of any value coming from the effort. Just because I've learned someone shares my love of a good tuna melt doesn't mean I'm going to grow, develop, or evolve in any meaningful way. Making connections aren't the same things as making bonds.
However, over my five plus decades of life, in interacting with all sorts of people (and having a very wide and eclectic social circle) I've drawn some conclusions about humanity, that I'd like to share.
#1 Humans, as entities, are GOOD. I really, honestly mean that. We are beings of "goodness," by our very nature. I understand that is a pretty difficult idea to swallow when there are countless examples of people who have done (and who continue to perpetrate) really evil and despicable acts. But it's something I've come to believe based on my experience. This is not some belief I have based on my religion (although my particular religion would agree with my personal conclusions)...I just have never experienced the contrary. I have never seen or experienced any evidence of a human that was "born bad" or is "evil to the core." Some might say (perhaps) that I've just been lucky in this regard...I acknowledge that's a possibility (though my religion, which has been around a lot longer than me, would say otherwise).
#2 "Bad humans" are the result of bad choices. I believe that humans have free will...we absolutely do. Nothing "makes us do" the things we do, once we're adults. We have the ability to choose what we do.
"But I was starving!"
"But my child was going to die!"
"But we were facing an existential threat!"
Bull. Shit. We always have a choice...humans always have a choice. "But they put a gun to my head! I would have died!" We will all, some day, die. ALL of us. Shuffling off this mortal coil is part of our human experience...wanting to prolong our lives (i.e. "survive") is also human nature and totally understandable. But it does not remove our free will. "Coercion" is a subjective thing, influencing different people to different degrees.
In the end, humans always get their say in their own actions; and it is their actions that define our behavior, good and bad.
What we perceive as "bad people" are people who have made bad choices. I'd guess that all the people reading this blog can look back at times they've made bad choices in their lives...I know that I have. And it doesn't matter the reason or motivation. A "bad" choice made for "good" reasons is still "bad." And if you make enough "bad choices," even if you're making them for "good" reasons, people are going to perceive you as a "bad person."
However, I should probably use more specific language. When I say "bad" I mean "evil," not just "wrong." An evil choice is one that does harm, intentionally. And for it to have been "intentional," the person making the choice must have had awareness and knowledge that the choice would do harm.
And, by the way, that "harm" includes "harm to ourselves," not just harm to others. If I know cigarettes are bad for my health and will kill me, then deciding to smoke is a "bad choice."
We all make bad decisions, bad choices, over the course of our lives; most of us make a LOT of bad choices. But we also make good choices, too. And many, many of us repent of our bad choices and try to make amends for those bad choices...or, at least, try to "not make the same mistakes" (bad choices) in the future. That's all to our credit.
What we perceive as "evil people" are people who have made bad choices, and continue to make bad choices, and who seem unwilling or unable to stop making bad choices. And I acknowledge that it can be hard for a person who has spent years or decades of making bad choices to suddenly stop...habits are habits, and habitual behavior becomes identity. And changing one's identity is akin to asking them to dissolve themselves...it goes against that "survival" aspect of human nature, mentioned earlier.
I've seen this in action with my own brother. Oh, he doesn't do "evil" to others, except in minor ways (the stress he's causing me and my family is pretty small in the grand scheme of "harm" one can do in the world). But he has spent years of self-harm with his decision-making, to the point that it has warped his own perception of who he is, i.e. his identity. It has not mattered that he's had other people...good friends, family members, loved ones...trying to help and support him and show him what he could be, or remind him of what he once was. He embraces his current identity, and continues to make the same poor choices and continues to refuse help and continues to blame his problems on external factors...rather than his own decisions.
But he's a 49 year old man. Not an 18 year old kid.
#3 With life and free will, change is always possible. Just because you've been a jerk in the past, doesn't mean you have to be a jerk in the future...nor even a jerk in the present. Of course, once you have a reputation as a jerk, it's hard for people to see you as anything else, even if you're trying to turn over a new leaf. That's just the way things are.
But it's possible. I'm a person who's gone through multiple "transformations" over the course of my life...51 years isn't a whole helluva' lot int he grand scheme of things, but it's still half a life. I went from being a real "goody-goody," to some kind of "tough guy/badass," to a "slacker/hedonist," to an "all natural Peaceful Warrior," to a "grown up / professional," to a "world traveller," to a "stay-at-home dad." And even the current "role" that I'm playing can be broken up into different chapters, as I've had to evolve and adapt to my kids' stages of development.
[just a couple days ago I was talking with my son, discussing the importance of our relationships with other humans and the creation of those relationships while still retaining our authenticity...ideas and concepts that will be important as he enters the arena of high school, but very different from what I'd tell him when he was my daughter's age]
These transformations have never been easy, mainly because I'm not a very patient individual and real change takes time; replacing prior habits with new habits is not an overnight process, even when one is focused and dedicated to altering your behavior and identity. In fact, the shorter the time you give yourself to change, the harder it is...gradual change (like the kind that transforms a young man into an old man) is the easiest of all, but it will take a good long time.
Interestingly (well, interesting to me) I can say that all the transformations I've made have been done out of love; occasionally love for myself, but USUALLY out of love for others. Love for a girlfriend, love for my parents, love for my wife, love for my kids. I think...I think...that for real change, real transformation to occur, a person must be highly motivated. And for most humans (a fairly lazy bunch, when you get down to it), it's hard to think of a much higher motivation than love. Death, I suppose...but as transforming identity is akin to death, it's hard for death to motivate much more than changing (small) aspects of our identity (quitting smoking or changing diet, for example).
Does ostracizing individuals aid them in finding love?
Back to the "Nazi" gamer kid.
I don't make a big secret about my politics: I tend to lean pretty far to the left. Once upon a time, I thought it was somewhat important to not support (i.e. give money to) folks who championed beliefs that were antithetical to my own...especially people who I felt were making deliberately harmful choices with their works or their propaganda or...well, with their lives.
Of course, I never thought once about the people who might be putting money in my pocket, supporting me financially by buying my books, regardless of our "political differences."
But I've grown since those days. For one thing, I've gamed with a lot of different people over the years, from all sorts of backgrounds, none of which ever made any difference to me...even (or especially) when I was younger. Because we weren't coming together to discuss politics; instead, we were there to play games. And we're still there to play games. LOTS of people like Dungeons & Dragons...people of all genders, people of all colors, people of all religions, people of all political ideologies. Are they good at playing the game? That's the real question. Do they get along well with their table mates? Do they respect the authority of the DM? Do they lie and cheat? Do they contribute to the fun of the activity?
I don't make a big secret about my politics, but I'm not expressing my politics when we sit down to game. I may use my knowledge of real world religions to inform the various churches and temples of my world (maybe), but I'm not trying to convert my players to any particular belief system.
Do I permit and allow and accept hatred and intolerance at my table? Eh. It just doesn't usually come up. When we were kids, it was pretty "par for the course" to make transgressive remarks and shit-talk and whatnot...which is something you find in teens and adolescents of all stripes (in my experience). But I don't allow bullying at my table, and I tend to curb things before people get uncomfortable...mainly just by focusing the action on the game being played. If the players aren't focused on the game, then chances are I'm doing a poor job of being a Dungeon Master.
I play with (and allow) all sorts of people at my table. If a really hardcore white supremacist or lefty radical or whatever came to my table and was uncomfortable about the folks I allowed to sit in I'd say, "you don't have to play." If one of my kids complained about one of the new kids I was allowing into a session, I'd say "you don't have to play" (of course, the new kid would only be there because he or she was invited by one of my children, so this only happens as a 'sibling issue').
Let me be clear: I dislike Nazi (and Neo-Nazi) ideology...a lot.
But there's a LOT of ideology out there I dislike. I've been pretty disgusted by actions the state of Israel has taken in recent months. To me, the war in Gaza has looked a lot like good old fashioned genocide, and the unprovoked attacks on Iran are indefensible. Very bad choices, in other words. Doesn't mean I'm an anti-semite, or that I "hate jews." I don't even hate the Israelis...I'm sure there are many Israelis who share (some of) my feelings. I know former Russians, now Americans, who are repulsed by Putin's invasion of Ukraine, even as they are proud of their heritage. My own government has made (and continues to make) bad choices, sadly, in the name of political ideology.
But hating the bad doesn't transform the bad.
I've gone from being angry (a lot) and hating things to being sad (a lot). Lots of things make me sad. War and poverty. Dictators and would-be dictators. Children with cell phones. Lots of things. But sadness doesn't create transformation either. I can be sad about the Neo-Nazi gamer kid ("oh, so sad...") or I can be angry about him ("get the hell out of my hobby!") and the end result will be pretty much the same: there will still be one more Neo-Nazi in the world, doing Neo-Nazi stuff. He might not be my problem (not now, not yet), but that doesn't mean it's not problematic.
And so, in the words of that Jesus guy, we've got to strive to love our neighbors as ourselves (yep, that old saw...). Which, by the way, ain't the same thing as being permissive of asshole behavior (hate speech, racist epithets, etc.). But I wouldn't kick someone from my table just because of how they voted in the last election. I can't change how you voted in the last election (even if I cared)...and that doesn't mean you won't somehow be changing your tune before the next election.
I've known a LOT of stupid 18 year olds that matured into something better than they were in their youths. I was pretty stupid myself...about a LOT of things.
We tend to throw around little "truisms" like flawed humans or nobody's perfect. Over the years, I've become less and less enamored with these phrases...phrases that imply that there's something wrong with the way we were created. In a grand scheme of the universe...if you believe in a primary actor/mover ("God" in the common parlance) setting things in motion...then you will (as I do) be forced to come to the conclusion that we were created a diverse group of individuals on purpose. We are all "perfect" in our own way...perfect vessels for the souls that are within each and every one of us. With our changing technology, however, we have become a far more secular, and far less spiritual species...and that has led us to (a tendency to) ignore or disregard or disbelieve that animating spirit within each of us...that real, actual thing that is the true uniter of us as a species, despite all our surface, external differences. Our inability (or unwillingness) to connect to each other's souls has...more than anything else...led to the polarization and discord we see in the world, even within nations that once had (if nothing else) a shared identity.
How can various nations hope to get along if the people within those nations cannot even get along?
I am neither a politician, nor a lawmaker; my actions take place on a much more limited stage, a much smaller scale and scope. And yet, I understand that my actions...my choices...still make a difference. And I'll be even more specific than that: I believe playing D&D with human beings makes a difference. Yes, a silly game about fighting monsters and finding treasure. Outside of kids' sports teams (which longtime readers will know I'm a big fan of), there are precious few formal ways we have of interacting with other people in a cooperative (non-competitive) fashion. Of making human connections. On a larger scale than a romantic couple or even many (most?) nuclear families. Especially for adults...adults who have so many worries and stresses in their lives.
We need to make human connections. As I wrote waaaay back at the beginning of this post, sometimes the connection itself is the only thing of value from socializing. That was not meant to disparage the act...we do not do this enough in our current society. And with D&D gaming, you have an automatic "in" to connecting with a fellow human on a deeper level than their surface identity.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
I've been thinking about it a lot, and yet I haven't known how exactly to express it. This seemed like an opportune time. With regard to the Nazi gamer kid, I could have simply kept my fat mouth shut on the matter, but... (*SIGH*) I have a voice, I have an audience. And I do think it's important.
Yes, it does matter that you're a damn stupid Nazi. That's a bad, bad choice. But as long as you're respectful or the game and of myself and of the other players at the table, you can play D&D with me.
We really need to stop hating the fuck out of each other.
Just recently discovered your blog and wanted to say thanks for this mature and wise post. I’m pretty sure most, if not all, of my players are fairly far apart from me on political issues, but it just doesn’t matter.
ReplyDeleteWe laugh, curse, and roll dice at the table together and enjoy one another’s company. That’s not an insignificant thing.
It really isn't.
DeleteThe nazi decision to treat vulnerable people as sub-human and worthy of expulsion/death (historically one follows the other) is not just a difference of opinion.The was a long-winded cop out of an article.
ReplyDeleteMm.
DeleteHitler's Nazi ideology was evil, wrong-headed, and extreme; I assume "Neo-Nazi"ism is much the same, though I admit to not being an expert on the subject.
However, it is not the only ideology that demonizes or dehumanizes people of a particular type...it is/was more flagrant and extreme and Hitler's position of power allowed him to take his ideas to (for him) their "logical" conclusion. F.w.i.w. you see something similar going in the United States right now (with a political ideology in place that treats a "vulnerable" population as "sub-human" and "expelling" them, regardless of the financial/human cost and, at times, without regard to due process or the law of the land, i.e. the Constitution).
Is our current government as bad as Hitler's Nazi Reich? No...we don't have death camps, and our dictator-in-chief has not yet done away with future elections (as Hitler did).
All that being said:
1) Hating and ostracizing a person with "bad" ideology (which is to say "evil" or "that which does harm"), is not the way to bring someone into the light. Sequestering them, cutting ties with them, etc. will only push them into further darkness. You can hate the ideology and have no tolerance for it at the gaming table, while still finding a way to love and include the person. You can still invite someone to a gathering without permitting them to espouse hateful rhetoric. You can still work with, go to church with, and be friends with people of different ideology than your own...whether extreme or not. Ideology is a system of belief; do not conflate "bad beliefs" with criminal actions.
2) An 18 year old kid is hardly a "fully formed" human. Speaking from the experience of having been one myself (and having known more than a few over the course of my life), I can say that with some experiential knowledge. People change. But if you want that change to be POSITIVE, your best way to influence that change is by modeling the behavior itself: love, compassion, kindness.
You're welcome to you different opinion, but for me I don't think it's a great idea to brand some teenager as a "forever pariah" just because of some stupid shit they posted on instagram.
My apologies for being long-winded.
Someone on reddit claiming somebody else to be a neo-nazi is like a liberal claiming anyone to the right of Mao to be a conservative.
ReplyDeleteDespite this, I do respect your willingness to engage with the idea presented and answer as if the source is actually reliable.
The only real answer here is: If the gaming is not affected by the player's beliefs, which *is* possible, then this is a non-issue as far as the game is concerned.
Assuming the opposite, A good DM can take the actions of a character and follow them to their logical conclusion. In other words: in-game evil should be punished by in-game consequences.
Assuming that the game/player is not what is in question at all, the question posed then ceases to be about D&D and instead becomes an inter-personal political question, at which point I would be forced to say that the post is disingenuous, because the need for it to be framed within the context of a D&D game would then be non-existent.
The question was posed in this fashion: the poster was a DM who had come to suspect via certain "clues" (specifically Neo-Nazi symbols, etc. on the players' instagram feed coupled with an inappropriate remark or three) that the player was a Neo-Nazi, and asking for suggestions of how to handle having such a player at their table, even asking if people felt he was overreacting.
DeleteWhy on Earth would I want to spend possibly hundreds, even thousands of hours playing a game with someone who considers me inherently subhuman.
ReplyDeleteI could do it, I can pass and my family is pretty well assimilated, but why should I have to deal with that? You talk about community and forging bonds, but it reminds me of a story my grandmother told me once. She grew up in rural California in the '60s and it was racist as sin. She told me about how adults would talk about running black people out of the county and all other sorts of heinous shit. But she also mentioned that there was a black family that lived there, and was generally accepted by the community. But that acceptance never extended to other black people, nor to other minorities. They were only accepted as "one of the good ones" for as long as they didn't rock the boat or challenge the status quo. Is that a good community? Why is the onus on US to ignore hatred and bigotry, and not on the Nazis to give up their bigotry? Why do WE have to meet them halfway? Why are WE the ones who have to suffer their slings and arrows (passed off, of course, as transgressive jokes and shit-talk. "Haha, it was just a joke, don't be so uptight") in silence and go elsewhere if we object? Why would I want to be a part of a community that just accepts that a chunk of their population wants me dead or oppressed, but as long as they're not disruptive during game time it's ok?
I'll stop hating the fuck out of them for choosing to be bigots when they stop hating me for being born brown. One of those can change, the other cannot.
Yes, this.
DeleteI really appreciate your comment.
DeleteAs a non-brown person, I've never had to experience the challenges and difficulties many people have faced due to the color of the skin. I imagine it's galling (at least!) to hear some straight white dude preach about trying to love racists and sexists and homophobes and whatnot, let alone trying to include them in our games and social circles rather than kick them the fuck out.
Even if I haven't lived your experience, I get where you're coming from; I understand your point of view.
But if there's ever going to be a change in the world, we have to start somewhere. Here's an anecdote that (I think) has some parallels: once upon a time, I was a pretty wild "party guy." Really debauched. And my social circle was composed of other crazy party people...these were years when I was NOT gaming (much), just by the way.
And I decided I needed to change...that I didn't want to keep being self-destructive. And I understood there was a different way to live. And, man O man, much as I wanted to change I did not want to do it ALONE. "Why the hell do *I* have to be the one to give everything up? Why do I have to be the person who's changing his lifestyle (when everyone else is having fun)? Why do I have to be the first?" A lot of bitchin' and moaning on my part...a lot of resistance to transformation.
But in the end, I finally realized it wasn't about the other people in my life at all. It wasn't about being a "trendsetter" or a "follower" or needing the permission or approval of others. It was really just a question of What Kind Of Person Do I Want To Be...that's all it was.
And so I changed.
I can understand the stance of "Why should *I* be the tolerant one? The one who has to love these assholes that hate me? Why do I have to do it when my friends sure won't (and who will look at me like I'm crazy)? That's bullshit and life's too short!" I totally get that. It's a hard ask of anyone. Asking a trans person to give up their anger at the trans-phobe. Asking the Jew to give up their frustration with the antisemite. Asking the person of color to find a way to love a white supremacist.
Hell, it might be a bridge too far. For a lot of people, I'm sure it is.
But it has to start...someone has to start it. Maybe it won't be you, and that's fine (I understand). But SOMEone. Because "hate" is a choice. And the choice to hate will never engender love or acceptance or ANYTHING POSITIVE in ANYONE. Hate does not beget love...it only begets more of the same.
I will also say this: forgiving people provides more benefit to the forgiver than the forgiven. We ask for forgiveness because we are repentant, but the forgiveness others grant is for THEIR BENEFIT, not ours. Holding grudges, resentments, recriminations within ourselves HURTS OURSELVES. And the repentant person will continue to feel the pangs of their guilt, regardless of the injured parties' forgiveness, until they too can find a way to forgive themselves.
We injure no one but ourselves by withholding forgiveness for others' transgressions against us.
So you want to continue hating bigots till they stop hating you. That's fine; I get it. And even if you find it in your heart to let go of your hatred (which will benefit YOU), you might take a hard pass on associating with (let alone gaming with) such bigots. Again: that's fine, I get it. It doesn't make you a "small" person or a jerk or anything like that.
But it won't do much to solve the problem. And until we start working on solving the problem, the problem will remain.
No, I don't think "I gave up partying because it was self-destructive" is anywhere near related to "I don't want to hang out with people that want to oppress me."
DeleteYou have to remember, we've been tolerant of them for AGES. We've let them push bigotry as long as they phrase it as "bussing" or "states rights" or "protecting our borders" and sat awkwardly as their actions harm minorities and destroy communities. We've let them sit at our tables and make cruel jokes they pass off as merely transgressive humour, but we didn't say anything because we didn't want to cause a fuss. After all, we're there to game, right? At some point we have to set boundaries for ourselves, at some point we have to say "this isn't right, and I will not be silent, because that only gives them cover to continue to be cruel."
You talk about withholding forgiveness, but you have the entire thing backwards. Forgiveness requires the person asking for forgiveness to actually change, or be willing to change, to ACTUALLY feel remorse for the actions they have taken. What you are asking me is to pre-forgive them, to give them cover while they continue to act in a way that is directly harmful to my family, and they can point at me and go "see, they forgave me so why won't you?" to the people they brutalise. Again, I'll be willing to forgive them if they are willing to give up hate. But they have to give up the hate first. THAT'S when forgiveness can occur, when they stop doing things that are harmful.
You don't need to wait for someone to ask forgiveness to forgive them. If a school shooter blows their own brains out before they can be apprehended, they're not going to be asking forgiveness of anyone. But hard as it is (especially of you are a relative of the shooting victims) it is still in OUR BEST INTEREST to find some way to forgive the person their transgressions. Because, if you can't, then you are CHOOSING to carry that scar...that pain, that suffering...within your soul forever after.
DeleteI'm not asking you to be tolerant of bad behavior. I don't tolerate bad behavior. I'm asking you to tolerate the person. If the person is behaving badly you ask them to curb it as a condition of sitting at the table. If they continue to behave badly, they are asked to leave and not invited back. I believe that's pretty standard procedure for running a (non-dysfunctional) game.
But, as I said before, I understand your stance. If you can't tolerate the very presence of a person, regardless of their behavior, then you can't. And you have ample justification (in the case of Nazi and white supremacist ideology). I get it.
Though I can't help but see a certain irony in being intolerant of intolerant people.
A school shooter who ends their own life is no longer a danger in themselves, and is different than someone who continues to engage in their behaviour without remorse. The immediate pain is gone, they won't be coming back, and all you have is yourself.
DeleteThere is an irony in being intolerant of intolerant people, yes, but that's because if you leave intolerance unchecked it festers. Germany has handled coming out of Nazism in part by enforcing laws against displays of Nazi emblems and ideology. Social stigma and ostracism have been shown to work. As much as we might wish for sudden Road to Damascus moments, it doesn't happen that often. Tolerance is a large-scale social contract, that any differences between us is ultimately minor and that you and I respect each others right to exist despite them, that we can see past what is odd or strange and see the humanity within. People that decide they do not want to subscribe to that social contract threaten the stability of the society built on that tolerance if left alone. They are always free to change, grow, and decide to rejoin the social contract if they don't like it.
Well, that's something then. But I'd say change is easier when one sees the space is open for them, should they choose to take that road.
DeleteWith regard to forgiveness: I'll say again, it is far more beneficial to the person doing the forgiving than the person who is being forgiven.
I do have a concrete example as well. You ever watch My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic? Good show, I enjoyed it quite a bit. But the fandom has a Nazi problem. Weird, right? A show about love, friendship, and tolerance despite differences? It's even pretty explicit about it too! But when Nazis started to show up, the fanbase in general decided to "love and tolerate the shit out of them." When the series was running this didn't seem to be an issue, there were lots of people enjoying the show. But once it ended it became more and more of an issue as people drifted away, the Nazis became a bigger part of the fandom and when people "loved and tolerated them" that just allowed them to be more open. Which then drove away parts of the community because, why would they want to be a part of a community that had a good chunk of population that considered them subhuman and wanted them dead? This is something they enjoy for fun, why should they have to justify their very existence every day when they just want to enjoy some free time? Now there's Nazis dug into the fandom and you have to be very careful to avoid ending up in spaces where they spew hate. It shouldn't have ended up that way, it's freakin' My Little Pony, after all.
DeleteThe thing is, Nazism is based on a lack of empathy, and a lack of media comprehension. You can have a show or movie or book or game that is explicitly antithetical to the Nazi worldview, and they will flock to it, fail to grasp underlying themes, and use a hollowed out version without themes or value to push their ideology, and in turn push people that don't fit their racially and socially pure ideology out of those spaces. Like, this is explicitly part of the Nazi playbook, they enter places with the justification of "free speech and tolerance" then use that position to entrench their power, until they can start forcing other people out, because when they talk about "free speech and tolerance" they don't actually believe that; it is a cudgel to beat down people that DO believe in those values, and they will set them aside the moment they are no longer useful to them and begin enforcing intolerance.
Huh. That's...odd. Do the Nazi's participation in "Pony Fandom" prevent non-Nazis from participating? I mean, if Nazis (jeez, already a caricature) want to fan MLP...and even create their own "Aryan" ponies and weirdness (...) then...what? Are the Ponies somehow tainted? I'd think most MLP discussion sites / forums would have moderators that prevent hate speech and obnoxiousness from invading the (internet) spaces.
DeleteBut that's just it, as long as they aren't disruptive, they're allowed to stay. After all, they're fans too, right? And, well, they're allowed to talk, as long as they don't cross the line into hate speech, right? So maybe they don't say anything outright but they do love to slip in oblique references to Nazism, the little in-jokes among themselves, dogwhistles, if you will, but nothing that rises to actual hate speech. And some of them have been non-disruptive for long enough that they might get put into positions of power, moderators or whatnot, and as long as they don't let their biases outwardly affect their performance, well, that's ok, right? And when people, minorities or otherwise, who recognise what's going on and point it out, well, they're not breaking the rules, right? Just love and tolerate them, and maybe they'll change. But this permissiveness only makes the space less safe for those other people. So they become less active, communicate less, and leave, because participating makes them a potential target. After all, Nazis are known to doxx and harass people off-site, and due to the nature of the internet it's difficult to definitively link that to these particular member of the community. This makes the community even more amenable to Nazis.
DeleteSo the community fractures, the non-Nazis leave, and they COULD start over, in fact several splinter communities do form, but they have to start from scratch, without the ability to organise in the confines of the former community, and for many people coming out of a threatening environment it's just not worth it. They leave the community entirely and seek a new one (think when someone has an INCREDIBLY bad tabletop experience, bad DM and obnoxious players and a complete lack of joy, and decides that it's not for them and they play videogames instead). Now there's one diminished, but still large, group that is amenable to Nazis, and several smaller, weaker communities that are not, which was the goal from the start and now they'll be emboldened to continue to act out now that they have their own community. After all, once everybody is a Nazi, or at least willing to look the other way, why would being an open Nazi be disruptive?
And yes, there is an "Aryan" pony, her name is Aryanne and let me tell you, I wish I could go back to not knowing about that.
Thank you for this post. I think I tend to have a similar perspective on this to you - I'm a descendant of people killed by Nazis, I'm a Marxist, presumably Nazis hate me and want me dead.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, if there's any chance of building bridges, won't it be accomplished in such a venue as at a gaming table? By all means, anyone who acts in an unkind or prejudiced way around me or toward other people in the given social group should be talked to and maybe kicked out. But how can we expect someone to mend their ways if they're only met with hate and ostracism?
Further, even if others aren't comfortable with the approach you outline, shouldn't it be acceptable for you (and me) to have a difference of opinion on this issue?
I assume your final question is rhetorical, but that is kind of my point. Humans do hold differences of opinion (sometimes in the extreme), but allowing those differences to partition ourselves or shut down communication is...not the right way to go.
DeleteIn my opinion.
A gaping blind spot in this is that you seem to imagine yourself in an unassailable dominant position. You're the DM, most of your group are people you like and are not Nazis, so if that one guy even is a Nazi (and you don't particularly care to find out), as long as he isn't overtly disruptive, why not build bridges instead of fences, right?
ReplyDeleteBut do you think this works both ways?
With the Nazi guy as the DM, and Nazis as the majority in the group, do you think they'll extend the same courtesy to you? Do you think they'll extend the same courtesy to a member of the scapegoat group of the day? In a Nazi society, even if they personally want to because of personal bonds, do you think the power systems will allow them to?
As the DM, I AM in an "unassailable dominant position." That's the nature of the gig.
DeleteAnd since I'm the DM, it only has to work ONE way.
A hypothetical "Nazi Land" where only Nazis act as DMs and most of the players are Nazis concerns me about as little as playing D&D on another planet/dimension or (more locally) playing D&D in some country (say, China) where I don't speak the language.
I can only control what I can control. I can control what happens at my table. I cannot control what happens at DM Nazi's table.
So DM Nazi is probably NOT going to engender a spirit of love and fellowship and camaraderie with his/her non-Nazi neighbors. And that's a pity and a shame.
But you think I should react in kind? You think I shouldn't exercise my power and authority to be BETTER than a Nazi? At least, in the arenas of tolerance and inclusiveness and love? Come on...you're not really saying that, are you?
I am fortunate that I don't live in a Nazi society (despite its other problems). I certainly don't want to live in a Nazi-run society. But the best way to keep Nazis from taking the reins of power is to keep more people from joining their movement. And who tends to join extremist movements? People who are disenchanted, disenfranchised, and looking for a "home," a meaning for their life, a human connection.
Playing D&D with them provides an alternative.
Are you really unfamiliar with this?
Deletehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#:~:text=The%20paradox%20of%20tolerance%20is,the%20very%20principle%20of%20tolerance.
Nope. Read quite a few philosophers as a Humanities major, but Popper wasn’t one (although I do remember Rawls’s “Theory of Justice” being assigned).
DeleteNever heard of the man before today.
I am fairly sure that the holocaust didnt happen, and that Adolf Hitler is the target of the biggest defamation campaign in history (there is plenty testimonies on him and other germans being not even racists, on the contrary of their contemporary americans). But I like your point that in the end, beyond ideologies, we are all good and love each other. Nobody likes to see their fellow humans suffering and we instinctivelly want them all to thrive.
ReplyDeleteThe Holocaust happened. You should visit the memorials.
DeleteNazis aren't welcome at my table because I don't want a Nazi table. It must be nice to not be the target of Nazis, it have loved ones who aren't, but if I welcome a Nazi, I'll telling those loved ones they aren't welcome.
ReplyDeleteFuck Nazis. Fuck Nazi apologists.
Um...I'm not apologizing for Nazis.
DeleteCool.
DeleteYou're just open to them at your table.
But not apologizing.... got it.
That’s right. Not apologizing for Nazis.
DeleteI am not responsible for the beliefs of other people, with the exception of my own children, whom it is my responsibility (as their parent) to teach and raise until they are adults and can make their own decisions about their beliefs.
I AM responsible for what happens and what is allowed at my table, i.e. the game I run…and I enforce this responsibility vigorously. If you game with me, you are expected to abide by my rules, including how you treat others. Hateful and harmful behavior towards the other participants is not tolerated. I do not even allow PVP between the (imaginary) characters. Certainly, I would not allow behavior (Nazi or otherwise) aimed at making people feel un-safe, including hateful or racist or misogynistic etc. remarks directed at or about real world groups of humans.
This policing is as rigorous as necessary to ensure the game I’m running is not disrupted. Wearing a swastika armband might be disruptive…as would a person who showed up with a shirt proclaiming FUCK YOU BITCHES! In large letters.
But if a person comports themselves respectfully and appropriately, then they can sit at my table. If there’s space.
This isn’t “apologizing” for Nazis or Nazi ideology, which is deplorable and despicable. But I can still try to connect with the human, even as I condemn hateful ideologies they may espouse and condemn/punish hateful actions they may take.
You run your table how you want. If you feel the need to exclude people based on their beliefs (or whatever reason), that’s fine. Maybe you’ll have to exclude me because of MY beliefs. I happen to believe people can change…even Nazis. I also believe in the innate goodness of human beings…even ones who act in terrible fashion. No one is irredeemable.
But I agree that some are terribly, terribly lost…and probably need help.
That's a lot of words for "yes, Nazis are welcome at my table"
DeleteWell, I already said that. Was explaining why I’m not a “Nazi apologist.’”
Delete