Of course, the term "fantasy adventure game" is not original to my noggin...I'm fairly sure I stole the term directly from my copy of Moldvay. "Fantasy Adventure Game Basic Booklet" it says, right there on the cover (the Cook/Marsh expert set says "Fantasy Adventure Game Expert Booklet"). The first paragraph of Moldvay's introduction begins:
DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Fantasy Adventure Game ("The D&D Game" for short) is a role-playing adventure game for persons 10 years and older...
It's a good term for what the game is about..."fantasy adventure," duh...and, I believe, helps put one in the mindset of what we're supposed to be doing when we sit down at the gaming table. Let there be no confusion! We are here to play a game of fantasy adventure; we are not here to play-act, explore alternate personalities, or craft delightful narratives...all things the "role-playing" term has come to represent.
For the most part, I've approached my entire role-playing hobby in this way...and why not, when my introduction to the hobby was the D&D game?...even with game systems that are clearly not conducive to this style of play. Or rather, I did...up until the early 2000s when I started reading RPG theory over at the Forge and recognizing how different systems facilitate different types of play.
So, yeah...I've been a fantasy adventure gamer (a "FAG") for a long time. 40+ years. And yet I understand that my view of how to use these games is different from the majority opinion these days. Which is why I decided to start distinguishing myself (and, yes, distancing myself) from the "role-playing" terminology. Not because I don't see what I do as "playing a role-playing games" (a genre of entertainment distinct from board games or computer games), but because my approach to how one plays an RPG is so foreign to the majority of the community...even that part of the community purporting to play Dungeons & Dragons, the FIRST fantasy adventure game.
I'm not the only one. I've previously mentioned the growing CAG community ("CAG" is an acronym for classic adventure gaming...I suppose the term "FAG" was found to be problematic...), a splinter group of the "old school" scene that exist mainly to 'keep the flame' of adventure gaming alive, in the same way that the early OSR tried to keep alive "old edition" gaming: by discussion, encouragement, and sharing of 'best practice' wisdom from old timers, not to mention just playing. In terms of the overall hobby, CAG style play can be seen as a niche of a niche: "old variety D&D" is enjoying the same proliferation and popularity one sees in the current (5th+) edition of D&D, but even among the folks who play old edition D&D (or its clones, like OSE) there is a lot of misunderstanding, misinformation, and inaccurate assumptions of what game-play is supposed to look like. The CAG folks aren't (especially) trying to rectify that, but they are trying to be a repository for knowledge, and a resource for folks looking for a way of playing these games in this particular style.
"This particular style." Yeah, I know how I sound. I'm trying to avoid writing "teaching people how to play D&D the correct way," because I know that ruffles feathers. Ruffling feathers isn't my objective today. Definitely not my objective.
*ahem* For more information on CAG, I'd suggest checking out the semi-regular CAG podcast, especially the first couple/three episodes. For shorter summaries, you can read Zherbus or EOTB's blog postings which are fair summations of CAG gaming philosophy. Both of these folks are strong proponents of 1E AD&D (and OSRIC, 1E's retroclone), for the simple reason that it is the system that best facilitates this type of play (a perspective I happen to agree with).
But the question has come up: Can Basic systems (like B/X, BECMI, Holmes, Labyrinth Lord, Old School Essentials, etc.) be used for CAG play? And, if so, how?
The basic games (Holmes, Moldvay, and Mentzer) were all initially intended to act as introductions to the D&D game. It is only with the additional Mentzer volumes (the Companion, Master, and Immortal rule sets) that the "D&D" game (distinct from Advanced D&D, i.e. AD&D, the main product line of TSR for the majority of its existence) became something that could be considered a "complete" game system...a system of its own, standing in its own right.
This latter edition (called BECMI, later consolidated in Aaron Alston's Rules Cyclopedia, sometimes referred to as the "RC") is something I didn't play when it was first published (i.e 'in the days of my youth'). My friends and I played AD&D, although we did pick up some of the BECMI offerings (for 'reasons'). But there was a LOT of stuff for this line that hit the shelves...I've always assumed it was a popular game line at the time, which is why they created so much content for it (setting material in the form of Gazetteers, game accessories, adventure modules for all levels of play). Decades later (in the early 2000s) I acquired a lot of it and messed around with it a bit, thinking there might be something there.
Meh.
Only recently, I've been hipped to the fact that it might not have been a very popular game line at all...at least in the USA. However, this Mentzer-penned version of "basic" was the version first translated (officially) into other languages and sold overseas. The 1E PHB and DMG were translated into both French and German, but Mentzer's Basic set (and the BECMI line) was translated to French, German, Danish, Finnish, Hebrew, Italian, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese, Korean, Spanish, and Swedish. For many countries outside the United States, Basic D&D was the seminal, defining version of the game.
I'm digressing. As said, the original Basic sets were meant to be a "gateway" to the AD&D game (as it was for me)...but that wasn't necessarily the case in other parts of the world. Then TSR crashed and we didn't see, hear, or care about these "basic" games until the rise of the OSR circa 2007-9.
Mm.
This next part is tricky. The OSR didn't treat these Basic editions as "introductory" systems; quite the contrary, they looked at them as editions of D&D worth being played in and for themselves. There were a lot of reasons for this. Ease/accessibility was a major reason: they are short systems to read with less nuance. Their rules were so uncomplicated and simple that creating additional, compatible material (a thrilling pastime for creatives) was a cinch. And...probably...there was a lot of familiarity and nostalgia with these systems, especially in light of A) the OSR being an international community, plus B) Mentzer's Basic being the "standard" D&D most widely translated across countries/cultures.
They were also some of the earliest retroclones on the market. Labyrinth Lord wasn't written as an 'introduction' to anything, and its Advanced Edition Companion gave people additional (1st Edition) content, adapted to the Basic chassis. Lamentations of the Flame Princess used basic D&D as a vehicle for exploring all sorts of grimness. OSE simply re-organized the B/X books in a way to make them even more user friendly than they already were. None of them were designed, nor seemed interested, in being a gateway or bridge to a more Advanced game. These clones were created by different, independent publishers (with different, independent motivations), NOT by a single, gigantic corporation hoping to funnel newbs to its flagship product.
So...back to that second question.
When one understands the objectives of "adventure gaming," one can begin to see the limitations inherent in a game designed first and foremost as an introduction to the "real game" (the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game written and published concurrently with the first 'Basic' set). Most of the stated attributes of adventure gaming (again, looking at the two cited blog posts above) are easily satisfied even with a basic system of procedures. However, the overall objective/goal of fantasy adventure gaming is long term campaign play...sustained play in an enduring fantasy environment, created by the DM and impacted by the players. Despite the ease and accessibility of the various basic rule sets, their systems have several insufficiencies that hinder long term play. These are:
1. Severe lack of distinction between character type. The basic character falls into one of seven categoric class, is defined by one of three alignments, and has an extremely limited selection of equipment and magic spells with which to choose. Variation between ability scores is compressed (seven possible options for each ability) contributing to a marked "sameness" between PCs. For an introduction to the game, this limited selection is more than adequate; it cuts down on the amount of "analysis paralysis" inherent in a new player approaching a complex game. For long-term engagement, however, more distinction and variety is desirable. AD&D offers 36 class variations (interlocking with race), another score of multi-class options, several times the number of armor and weapon selections, and four distinct spell lists, each of which contains more 1st level spells than any spell list in the basic systems. The variety in the advanced game is sufficient without being overwhelming, providing much "replay" value (in terms of exploring different character types for interacting with the D&D environment).2. Lack of survivability. This has been discussed before: basic characters are fairly fragile at low levels, easily slain by misadventure. Lack of staying power is a barrier to long-term play, requiring more work on the part of both DM and players to ensure surviving to higher levels of play (a desirable outcome as it opens more content for players and DMs to experience). AD&D increases survivability by providing higher hit dice for most character classes, a negative hit point "buffer," and plentiful healing magic from clerical types even beginning at 1st level.3. Less opportunity for advancement. Basic systems award x.p. for both combat and treasure found (just as in AD&D) but does so at a lesser rater: fewer x.p. are awarded for monsters and treasure x.p. is only awarded for monetary treasure (magical items being deemed as 'their own reward'). True, x.p. totals for advancement are slightly lower than in the Advanced game, but in practice, far more x.p. is awarded in the Advanced game, especially with the potential to sell magic items for exorbitant amounts of gold and x.p. This procedure in first edition AD&D allows characters to continue to rise at a regular pace, even as the x.p. totals needed for advancement rise to six- and seven-digit figures. Treasure pools for monsters also have a tendency to award more treasure than what is given for the hoards of basic monsters; type H treasure (the best available in B/X) awards an average haul valued at 50,000 g.p. Considering that H treasure only occurs in dragon lairs...and that 50K split seven or eight ways is quite a small amount for name level characters requiring 100K-150K each for advancement...that is a lot of risk for comparatively small reward. As basic game PCs rise in level, advancement has the potential to stifle which, coupled with low survivability, is a bad recipe for "long term" play.4. Lack of options for mid- to high-level play. Even when a basic campaign awards sufficient treasure for regular advancement, there is precious little to spend all that money on. Basic games require no training costs, no upkeep costs, have a shorter list of "buy" options available, and prices of items are quite depreciated (consider that plate armor costs a measly 60 g.p. in basic play and is available to all but the poorest of 1st level characters). Basic rules provide no rules for item depreciation/destruction, and thus there is never a need to replace or repair equipment for hirelings and retainers. While the Expert sets of both B/X and BECMI provide some guidelines for the building of castes and strongholds, only Mentzer's Companion and Master books make any real attempt at providing "domain" (rulership) rules...and these are poorly done, providing heaps of unearned x.p. on the heads of domain rulers for doing little more than raising taxes on their populations. True, there is some impetus for conquest provided in the Companion book (if only to gain higher titles of nobility), but the "War Machine" system is extremely limited in scope (meanwhile, neither Holmes nor B/X offer any such systems, referring DMs to the out-of-print Sword & Spells for handling mass combat).
I admit that Mentzer's BECMI system strives mightily to provide options for high level characters: proto-prestige classes, combat maneuvers, higher level spells, demihuman "crafts," powerful monster antagonists, and codified quests for immortality. But, for all practical purposes, these options remain far out of reach due to the lack of advancement opportunity (#3 above) which makes the achievement of Companion (15th-25th) level characters next to impossible to achieve. Such characters require well in excess of 1 million g.p. worth of treasure...the equivalent of 20 average sized dragon hoards...each, in order to reach such lofty heights. Personally, I've found 12th level to be just about the maximum effective in (standard) B/X play, and even that requires impractically large treasure hoards (a four ox wagon can only pull 25,000 coins weight; a bag of holding in basic can only hold 10,000 coins). Any character with half a million in gold coins has the cash to purchase multiple castle complexes given the procedures in the basic rules.
And I imagine that was deemed just fine by the original designers. Buy your castle, retire your character...and then graduate to the Advanced D&D game for your next go around. Buying a castle and settling down in your gold stuffed halls should be considered a "win."
But fantasy adventure gaming is not played with a particular endpoint in mind. Some characters will, of course, "retire"...especially demi-humans who've reached the level limits and are unable to progress further. For the majority of human characters, however, AD&D has no hard cap, no limitation to advancement; like the campaign itself, adventurers' careers have the potential to be perpetual, ongoing without end. In theory, basic characters (both B/X and BECMI) have a 36 level cap which should probably be all but unreachable, even after years of play...but the game does not scale nearly as well as it does in the AD&D game. Demons in BECMI are equivalent to (lesser) gods, not beasts to be fought in the deepest dungeon levels or (more usually) on the outer planes. And while Mentzer included his own version of artifacts in the Master set, they do not function nor serve the same purpose of reward as the artifacts and relics found in the 1E DMG (hint: there's a reason Gygax gives these items a sale value in gold).
So for those folks wishing to play a simpler, streamlined "basic" system with long-term CAG objectives, what can be done to remove these inherent impediments?
1. Increase character variability. The interlocking combination of race and class has generally been found to be sufficient for providing diversity in character choice. Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion (and, presumably, OSE Advanced) takes pains to adapt 1E's system to the basic style and can be adopted wholesale...these games also tend to recreate the extended spell lists and equipment charts of 1E, but in a "basic" style. Solid world building with attention paid to markets and economy, and one's own setting-specific character options can also provide variety for players. The Complete B/X Adventurer provides a plethora of character options and new character classes, although the latter are meant to be used sparingly in better tailoring one's setting, not dropped in their entirety into a campaign.
2. Increase character survivability. Basic characters start to hit their stride around 3rd level, and one can simply start PCs at that level; likewise, DMs might add negative HP buffers, higher hit dice, and bonus spells (based on WIS or INT scores for clerics and magic-users, respectively). However, the main consideration for basic groups is to ensure they have enough bodies in their adventuring parties: 7+ is generally the fewest you want to see, and hired mercenaries (like the kind found in adventure module B2) should be readily available to low-level parties needing to 'fill out the ranks.' Special attention should be paid to both the Reaction and Morale procedures in the basic system, and both the DM and players should understand how these work, as 'breaking' foes (especially humanoids) is generally going to pay higher dividends than fighting them to the death. Fierce as a single ogre is, it is less likely to kill half a party than five to seven bandits/humanoids (all those attack rolls!)...especially ones armed with missile weapons. DMs need to take a look at what makes a "survivable" encounter for low level characters: the Tower of Zenopus example dungeon in Holmes basic, and adventure module B1 are both good resources in this regard. Also, it is incredibly important that DMs stock enough treasure that players are leveling up to more sturdy levels of experience as quickly as possible.
3. Provide sufficient treasure. Unless one adopts the AD&D system of awarding x.p. for magic items, and higher award totals for defeating monsters, DMs will need to find ways to stock immense amounts of coin and valuables for the players to advance. It should not be unusual for PCs to be 3rd level after 4-6 sessions of play (depending on character type and diligence in sniffing out loot), given a bit of luck and survival. Unfortunately it is difficult to sustain such progress even into the mid-levels, as I first noted waaay back in 2010...it is simply a flaw of design. However, one idea I had back then was to slash all x.p. requirements (i.e. the amount of x.p. needed to advance in level) by a factor of five or ten, while retaining the normal treasure hoard amounts and monster x.p. values. So, for example, a fighter's progression might look like this:
1st level: 0 x.p.2nd level: 400 x.p.3rd level: 800 x.p.4th level: 1,600 x.p.5th level: 3,200 x.p.6th level: 6,400 x.p.7th level: 12,800 x.p.8th level: 24,000 x.p.9th level: 48,000 x.p.10th level: 72,000 x.p.
With an advancement table like this, a 50K dragon hoard split amongst eight survivors is a nice chunk of change: enough to raise a 6th level fighter to 7th or make a good size dent in a higher level character's x.p. needs.
4. Provide options for PCs of higher levels. Reducing the x.p. needed to advance alleviates some of the pressure to provide overflowing piles of gold and gemstones, but players must still have monetary needs to drain their coffers and perpetuate the cycle of treasure seeking. Here, solid world building will help, providing all manner of costs and expenses as well as delightful ostentations for purchase. DMs can, of course, adopt upkeep costs, item saving throws, and training fees from the 1E DMG...but then, why not just play AD&D?
More than that, game play needs to be scaled so that it remains interesting even as play progresses...players should not be taking the same approach to monster fighting at 8th or 13th level as at 1st and 2nd. Here, a DM might well want to look at the later BECMI books (Companion and Master) for rules and procedures that are adaptable even down to 9th level (I would NOT however adopt the weapon specialization rules for low-level characters as it can disrupt game balance in the same way the UA's weapon specialization rules do). Likewise, DMs might wish to take a look at my own B/X Companion which provides a great deal of material specifically geared for high (15th+) level B/X play. Both "companion" books provide a number of new procedures (including unarmed and mass combat rules) in addition to a ton of new "content" (spells, monsters, magic items). For that matter, DMs looking for content might want to look at my last book Comes Chaos for a host of demonic entities and corrupted magic items, great for tarting up one's mid- to high level B/X campaign.
The main thing, however, is to understand that there's going to be a lot of work involved in adapting a Basic rule system to the needs of long-term campaign play. While AD&D has requires a bit more work up front (learning to use its system) in comparison to the basic games, once learned it provides depth of game play from 1st up through the highest levels, needing only world building and adventure writing on the part of the DM to maintain solid, satisfying play. The basic system is incredibly easy to learn and run, but to make it an enduring form of play (i.e. the kind of play worth spending time out of our busy schedules) requires far more effort, not just in tweaking and experimenting with modifications to rules, but in designing adventures and developing content. Sure, there are sources for this content to be found: bestiaries, tomes of magic items, or various retroclones (and their supplements) with setting specific particulars...but searching out that content and curating it requires work. By contrast, I've yet to use every monster presented in original 1E Monster Manual, let alone the Fiend Folio and MM2, and there are spells and magic items from the original PHB and DMG that haven't yet been seen at my table...after decades of play.
Just saying.
That work, that effort that goes into making a basic game system a sustainable form of play can be fun at first...look at my blog as evidence of that! All the tinkering I did with B/X over the first 10-12 years of its life...but over time can lead to frustration and (in my case) ennui. The mature, adventure focused Dungeon Master wants to spend his or her time on world building and scenario creation, not hand holding and system modification, but the shallowness of basic game play requires BOTH those things in order to make it last and function ("hand holding" being a shorthand for customizing the game in a way that it doesn't kill the PCs nor bore the players out of engagement). YES, it CAN be done...but do you want to? Is that a price you're willing to pay just because you don't want to spend some time parsing the AD&D rule books?
There's a reason I'm not playing B/X these days...and it's not because I don't still think it's a great simple system that can be readily taught and is easily customizable in a multitude of ways. B/X IS a "fantasy adventure game;" it's just not a great one when it comes to sustained, long-term play. And at this point in my life, that's pretty much the only type of game play I'm interested in.
The ever increasing amounts of treasure needed to advance is a problem with AD&D too. Maybe a little less so for the reasons you present but then you have training costs on top of everything which adds more cash requirements, fiddly accounting and in game downtime.
ReplyDeleteIt’s definitely not as pronounced…there are a multitude of expenses for the high level “cash rich” PC in 1E. Monthly expenses apply to retainers as well as the character, as do training costs (for those who use them). And the listed fees for spell use (level restoration, dead raising, etc.) are pretty steep…although quite necessary for PCs going up against high threat monsters. I find the 1E “game economy” to be fairly tight. For certain, it is tighter than that of B/X.
DeleteI don't like FAG as I think this style of game play can apply to non fantasy games like T2000, Rifts, Gamaworld, Shadowrun, etc. Our long Shadowrun campaigns were almost Adventure Games. I think I could run one now that way. It would take a lot of prep, but someday.
ReplyDeleteCAG is also not great as it implies older rule systems. I think you could use CAG with the new T2000 but don't know if the system is robust enough for very long play as I haven't played it.
Maybe TTAG table top adventure games?
Also the link to "Zherbus" blog seems less a explanation of CAG but more a " Don't use B/X" which is a weird read before your post saying the same thing.
I love B/X but see your point and Zherbus on why it isn't great over long play as presented. I've ran FAG campaigns for 2e, 1e, my homebrew D&D, and 5e. But I also want to try and run one to see, I figure if I can make 5e work I can do anything.
Last despite the Seahawks coverage being light recently on this blog. Did you see that Bosworth and Lynch are going to be in a movie together?
https://www.fieldgulls.com/2024/7/8/24193993/seahawks-news-marshawn-lynch-acting-career-suddenly-gaining-massive-momentum
I prefer the term “fantasy” because it can apply to other fantastical genres. I don’t use it only to refer to the genre of “dragons, elves, and magic,” but also space fantasy, military fantasy, western fantasy, post apocalyptic fantasy, etc. all these games have a fantastical element to them, even if they don’t feature the tropes of Tolkien and Howard.
DeleteI linked to Z because I think it makes complementary reading with E’s recent post.
A lot of RPGs can be run in this style (probably not Toon…), but some have a harder time being adapted than others. 5E falls into a category of difficulty well beyond B/X. Because of its reliance on “story awards” for advancement, there is a decided lack of player agency in 5E which is very antithetical to this style of play.
W.r.t the Seahawks, I am excited to see how the team does this season, and I am quite satisfied the Titans signed Jamal Adams (so that there’s no chance he remains in a Seattle uniform). Mainly I’ve been following the fortunes of the M’s this summer…time enough for the Seahawks in September.
; )
In 5e the official rules give up for defeating monsters (not sure if it says kill or defeat actually). XP for story rewards or overcoming other obstacles are optional. Milestone leveling is also optional.
DeleteSo I agree XP for gold and killing monsters is better, the agency is not taken from players RAW in 5E.
How most people play it probably falls into the the milestone levels, cause tracking xp has fallen out of style (boooooo hisss).
Honestly 5e accomplishes all of your bulleted complaints about B/X or EOTBs list of what is needed.
But it's not a great game for other reasons. One because even with great players operating effeciently combat takes "F"ing forever. Two magic is way to prevelant to present a realistic economy. I know He says you shouldn't "Mud Core" but I also think the campaign has to have some grounding. But that might just be my opinion. I have more complaints but those two are my biggest.
Jamal Adams: like that saying about a boat. the two happiest days are when you get him and when you see him leave.
Hahaha! (w.r.t. Adams).
DeleteRE 5E and Adventure Gaming
If you play a 5E game RAW and give players full agency (i.e. not subject them to the whims of DMs, or the railroads that give them milestone rewards), ambitious players...that is, those who seek to advance in level and power...will seek out conflict and violence at every opportunity. Which makes 5E "just a game about combat." Not exploration. Not adventure. Just...killing shit.
This is the same old problem of system mattering and "advancement procedures" shaping player behavior.
'Oh, no, JB...that's not what 5E is about at all!' shout the proponents of the current edition of D&D. 'Players won't just go all murder-happy. They still want all the same stuff as a "classic" D&D player.'
No. If I sat down to a 5E game, knowing the rules (which I would be sure to do because I like to read and master rules before I sit down to play a game), you can be DAMN sure that I would be murdering the hell out of things in order to get the x.p....because gaining POWER is my motivation in playing D&D. Sorry. I don't want to be 1st level any longer than necessary.
So, how then would a 5E DM deal with ME, malcontent that I am? Penalize me for not sticking to their "story" (i.e. awarding the other players with milestones because they jump through hoops while I don't)? Yeah? Fine...f**k that guy (or gal) then, and screw you if you declare "hey, you have agency in this game."
No. That's not agency.
I don't run a campaign that's full of murderous sons (and daughters) of bitches. But that's because of the system I use which doesn't reward PCs SOLELY for combat. If I ran a 5E game RAW, in my NORMAL fashion (i.e. allowing players their own choices), guess what? They'd become a bunch of murderous S(D)oBs. Because that's what System PLUS Agency promotes.
Yeah, I suppose that's a TYPE of adventure gaming. But not one I'm into. And it still leaves a lot to be desired in other rule areas.
[sorry if it seems I'm jumping down your throat 7B: it's not us I'm railing against, it's 5E]
I don't take offense, 5e isn't my hill to die on.
DeleteI think that most players when given true agency, regardless of system, eventually they latch on to more than just level advancement. Yes you have AD&D players who will rob every house in Hommlet and every shop in the Keep to try and gain a level (with plenty of murder along the way), but if you build a good world that they can interact with they will start to prioritize other agendas besides just gaining levels.
When the players recognize a course of action isn't the best XP reward but still make a sub optimal choice to get revenge on a NPC or to push an in world agenda, that's when I know I have a good dynamic world going and a campaign that is going to last. Players are vested. They start pushing there agendas and moving the campaign to what they want it to be. Those organic moments don't come if you give them Story Awards XP or Bonus XP for "morally" right actions.
I agree that players will deviate (often!) from the basic agenda of leveling their characters, but leveling (and, thus, the advancement system) colors this dynamic. In a game where gold awards x.p., players will always be weighing potential profit as part of their "risk-reward" decision making tree. If the game rewards murder, then they'll tend to look at situations through blood-soaked lenses.
DeleteExcellent post. Of course, "fantasy" game has also been undermined by those who insist that yes, they're playing their "fantasy" of play-acting, exploring alterate personalities and crafting delightful narratives.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking for myself, I don't give a damn what the game is called. "D&D" is fine; no one agrees on what it means and I can always specify what I'm not playing by using any of a hundred cognomens. We can call it "Bob" for all the difference it makes to actual gaming.
Agreed.
DeleteMy follow-up comment ran a little long. Hope you don't mind me posting a link:
Deletehttps://tao-dnd.blogspot.com/2024/07/when-we-were-alone.html
Not at all!
DeleteIm running a bx campaign at the moment and now i have a lot to think about. Lowering the XP? Sounds very tempting. Im very interested on seeing and running mid/high level play (which im very inexpert on) and im going to check your books when i have time. Could you give me a short explanation on how adnd demons and relics generate good high level gameplay? Im unfamiliar to them
ReplyDeleteIt's not that they generate game play; rather, they provide something FOR game play at high levels which is not available in Basic play.
DeleteDemons, devils and other extraplanar monster beings (night hags, titans, daemons, etc.) provide serious antagonists not easily handled at low and mid levels...the magic resistance alone negates some of the "big guns" of PCs (an eighth level magic-user's fireball has a 70% chance of failure again a monster with 50% magic resistance, even before its saving throw). These types of creatures, not to mention beholders and dragons (whose breath weapons remain potent even with a depletion of hit points), ensure that even high level characters have challenges to face.
Meanwhile artifacts are especially potent magic items that offer amazing effects...and also terrible side effects (all artifacts have both good and negative benefits). To the high level character, such items provide a power even better than the standard magic item...at a cost. On the other hand, such items are very valuable (in g.p.) and so the better option (for players who can resist the temptation) is to SELL such items, thereby gaining much needed x.p. to aid in their quest for advancement.
Such books ensure that play can continue well past 14th level in the advanced game.
; )
I won't go through your posts one by one as that would probably be a waste of time for both of us. Yet I do want to vehemently disagree with your argument that one should run 1e because it already has everything necessary for long term play and is therefore easier in the long term. Every long term campaign will eventually result in all sorts of rules changes, additions, and world building no matter the system used. I feel that Alexis's Wiki with all of its expanded material for AD&D is a perfect example of that. He has also advocated for picking a system and sticking with it, but I do think that system is going to change to what you need over time regardless of what you start with.
DeleteAs a tangent, on FB there was a post several years ago extolling the virtues of BX/OSE and that it didn't need houserules, to which I responded with something to the effect that I had plad played long enough to know that there will always be houserules. And someone replied they had played long enough to know they didn't need houserules. From that it was easy to tell what type of game they played and it wasn't the type of long-term campaign you describe. I feel the same way when 1e is described as not needing houserules for long-term play. The game will naturally change and become better through long-term play.
Hm. Welll...I never said one SHOULD run 1E (at least, not in this post). Someone asked me (elsewhere) to explain how to run B/X in a "CAG fashion;" that was my impetus for posting.
DeleteB/X and its derivatives are ALREADY "adventure games," and are built to be played as such. The thrust of my essay isn't that that B/X is unworthy of play (for individuals who enjoy adventure gaming), but to point out some of the issues that it has over the long-term, and provide some ideas for dealing with those. While ONE of those ideas is "play 1E instead," I can see that's not everyone's cup of tea and may, in fact, be construed as the "lazy approach," since (as you point out) tweaking/modification is going to occur in most (all?) systems, played over a long enough time.
Given that I am proficient in running both systems, there are only two reasons why I (ultimately) chose to run 1E over B/X:
1) nearly all the changes I'd make for B/X are already done in 1E, and
2) having a "mostly there" system frees up more time for adventure design and world building.
For some, like your FB poster, the B/X (or other Basic) rules may be all they need to run the game long-term. There are people who purport to do this, and that's fine. But it hasn't been my experience.
I don't use Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or TikTok. I've lately managed to get Reddit and YouTube out of my system, and the detox has me feeling better than I've felt in over a decade. There isn't much left of the internet after that except blogs and forums.
ReplyDelete. . . Aaaaaaaaand, it looks like it's time to quit reading blogs.
Ha! That could well be. The nice thing about having a blog, is that I can pen long essays like this and have my work in a single place, archived and searchable. I tend to get lost in the detritus on those other sites.
DeleteBut, yeah, it can be immensely freeing to unplug...especially from the ramblings of opinionated wind-bags like myself!
; )
I'm just saying, for the sake of my blood pressure, it's best that this diehard BECMI forevereferee not get into any arguments about the viability of D&D vs. AD&D for long-term TTAG campaign play. :Þ
Delete(But I will mention again, as I have many times before in your comments section, that I favor "Tabletop Adventure Game" as a genre designation. It adds just the right soupçon of deference to miniatures wargaming.)
Right on, man. I'm not a BECMI fan, but there's no denying it strives to be a "complete" system...one that opens up quite a bit for "name level" PCs (especially compared to other "basic" games).
DeleteIt's just getting to that 9th level that can be tricky, given its inherent limitations. Do you use the Rules Cyclopedia optional "experience bonus" rules? That gets into subjective 'Dm fiat' areas (which I dislike) but they CAN supplement some of the advancement issues that arise in standard play.
>Do you use the Rules Cyclopedia optional "experience bonus" rules?
DeleteCertainly not, precisely because I don't want to employ subjective fiat or judge how players choose to roleplay their characters. That sort of thing inevitably leads to rewarding performative portrayal over good gameplay, and I don't consider that to be the least bit fair to players who simply aren't interested in in-character, actor-stance "high roleplaying."
I adjust the pace of advancement by making sure to stock and restock my dungeons with adequate treasure. I do this by settling on a desired treasure/XP value appropriate to each dungeon sub-level and then spreading the resulting hoards around each level using a variation on your own halved hoards method. I don't generally award XP for magical items kept (though I'll award 10% sale value for an item sold immediately after a delve).
I really, really LIKE the fact that 1e has XP awards associated with keeping magical items. I think that's a very good rule, if only because it makes items more coveted and players more covetous. (It always strikes me as terribly out-of-genre for a player to ever say, "another player can keep that item, their class means they'll get more use out of it." Magical items are supposed to be a source of cupidity and contention, not a point of casual cooperation.) The only reasons I don't use it are (1) I would have to keep a DMG on hand, and I'm already carrying enough crap around when I go run games at my preferred venues, and (2) advancement in the Basic game is already fast enough as it is, given the amount of treasure I tend to put in dungeon levels (about 8,000–10,000 g.p. worth on any given 1st or 2nd level dungeon sub-level, double that on a 3rd level sub-level, doubled again for 4th level, and so on, only leveling back out to a linear increase for dungeon levels deeper than 8th — in keeping with the classes' XP advancement tables).
And once the player characters are up above name level, that linear XP progression makes for a whole different ball-game. Remember, Basic characters need only about half as much XP as AD&D characters to advance (100K, 120K, or 150K vs. 220K, 225K, 300K, or 375K). They frankly don't need the help that bonus XP from magical items would provide — but they are getting bonus XP from dominion taxation, and that's quite enough!
Really great post. I never really played the basic game, I started with ad&d (2e and a handful of 1e games) and while we tried basic we felt it was a step backward since we were already playing "advanced"
ReplyDeleteThe OSR is chock-full of Basic and Basic-derived games these days.
Delete