tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post8614870156582618485..comments2024-03-28T00:41:13.514-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Addendum to the RantJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-44475455126800673472012-01-07T09:32:08.539-08:002012-01-07T09:32:08.539-08:00John L nailed it. Dungeons are good for beginning ...John L nailed it. Dungeons are good for beginning DMs because the finite environment makes the design process manageable. <br /><br />Wilderness adventures can pose a more complex design challenge, but a wilderness crawl is not inherently more interesting than a dungeon crawl. In either case, the adventure may boil down to the dumb core premise of killing and robbing monsters to acquire the means to kill and rob tougher monsters.<br /><br />For some PCs, the core premise is adequate. If your character is a greedhead or a glory hound, then avarice and pride should prove sufficient to motivate every adventure. <br /><br />However, just as pulp fiction antiheroes tend to become truly interesting only when they discover an unsuspected moral core, this is often true of PCs as well. I think Gygax may have been pushing in this direction when he imposed the concept of alignment, the startling requirement that character actions should reflect a consistent philosophy, even though the actions of people in the real world frequently don't reflect any similar coherence.<br /><br />It certainly elevates the game to a new level when characters find deeper motives for adventure. One major advance in module design is that authors now often offer multiple possible hooks to rope characters into the scenario.<br /><br />Some old modules model how to deepen the game. Consider Vault of the Drow, for example. Gygax presents an enormous sandbox, including a city and a dozen clan villas. Parties that mount a frontal assault on the place will die in short order. The only way to bring it down is to infiltrate it, requiring lots of roleplaying to navigate the city, exploit the alliances among Drow clans, and figure out where to find Lolth.Brian MacKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12752842049666489041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-50956903023594959442012-01-06T18:39:31.290-08:002012-01-06T18:39:31.290-08:00FYI, I'm sure the good folks at Google are scr...FYI, I'm sure the good folks at Google are scratching their heads right now -- wondering why the search phrase "Goth Frank Miller" trended so highly for a few hours there.<br /><br />If only my Photoshop skills were a little better...Cygnushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394890573443379954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-75412542566458527072012-01-06T08:50:09.116-08:002012-01-06T08:50:09.116-08:00Why do I need more rules to go kill evil high prie...Why do I need more rules to go kill evil high priests who practice their dark arts in temples instead of dungeons? Need I explore a dungeon to defeat that neutral Lord who dwells in a nearby castle? I don't have to delve into labyrinthine sewers to kick the butt of a gang of thieves do I?<br /><br />@Leee, X1 was indeed an excellent model of wilderness adventure and an entire generation of gamers were exposed to that in the expert set.<br /><br />Dungeons are the foundation of the game, not the limit.JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-15833126263574668332012-01-06T07:13:37.029-08:002012-01-06T07:13:37.029-08:00The rules provide the basic tools and components (...The rules provide the basic tools and components (combat, movement, NPCs, skills, hazards, a range of monsters, spells and magic items) for running all sorts of adventures, whether in the Keep on the Borderland, the City of Greyhawk, the Outer Planes or wherever the DM fancies. I think what you are getting at (and I may be misreading you) is there isn't enough instruction on how to put the tools to use and put the components together to form an impressive narrative. I was going to say "form an impressive story" but that implies a pre-ordained plot, which I'm not keen on. I kind of view D&D as an imaginary version of lego or mechano - all the bits are there, but I don't always know how to fit them together. I've found that experience and practice are the best ways. Realistic expectations for outside the dungeon are good as well - dungeons are neatly compartmentalised into rooms, with specific corridors channelling adventurers to relevant encounters. Outside the dungeon PCs can and will wander all over the place, sometimes away from things the DM wants them to get involved in.John Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16945534608747334150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-63359285573576313552012-01-06T03:32:24.245-08:002012-01-06T03:32:24.245-08:00this reminds me of your "crippeld games"...this reminds me of your "crippeld games" posts. (where you praised d&d for, um... being stupid. :P)<br /><br />i still believe whatever the players bring to the table is much more important than the premise of any given game.<br /><br />i don't see any reason why new players today should be unable to see potential in a game, while older players obviously were. just like you (and so many others) did, they will find their own way to play.<br /><br />if a game allows them to do that it can be as stupid as a conservative candidate, it'll still be a good game. no game will ever be able to provide ALL the tools players and dms might need (unless you use a very restrictive premise. yeah, i know, you'd like that. :)).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-49432309317982132942012-01-06T02:59:41.185-08:002012-01-06T02:59:41.185-08:00I dunno, I always thought that X1: Isle of Dread g...I dunno, I always thought that X1: Isle of Dread gave you a pretty good idea of what a wilderness adventure was supposed to be. <br /><br />http://osrandom.blogspot.com/Lee Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01127805337560546059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-56872091734769746862012-01-06T01:27:36.944-08:002012-01-06T01:27:36.944-08:00You have definitely to go to late BECMI (as you no...You have definitely to go to late BECMI (as you note from the Companion set onward) and AD&D2e (a hefty part of the 2e DMG is devoted to these aspects, and also look at some settings like Birthright) to realise the "full potential" of the game.<br />I agree that 4e must be the first D&D which has a very strong premise, and built around that premise. I found out recently that some aspects of 4e can be easily "toned down" to have an enjoyable experience.Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-89304377896449092812012-01-05T23:59:07.904-08:002012-01-05T23:59:07.904-08:00JB, I swear I'm going to make you play a class...JB, I swear I'm going to make you play a classic Runequest game one of these days, despite the fact that you'd hate and probably post against it for being skill based. There were a few "lite" dungeon adventures published, but mostly it was about being out in the sunlight. You just COULDN'T dungeon crawl. That much combat would inevitably fuck. you. up.The Iron Goathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15839364742884404019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-38738284259390450262012-01-05T21:21:29.632-08:002012-01-05T21:21:29.632-08:00@ Pal: When I started playing (circa age 9), my ba...@ Pal: When I started playing (circa age 9), my background in the literature was also quite lacking: my biggest sources of inspiration were cartoons, Disney, and Ray Haryhausen movies. I think the game of D&D actually led me to read fantasy fiction from a very early age...and we adapted our games from there.<br /><br />@ Blacksteel: I took the time to reread through my copy of the Expert set (and the original DMG) prior to posting this addendum and I feel I can quite fairly say it does not provide adequate explanation as to what "adventures outside the dungeon" entail. It explains how to move through a wilderness, forage for food, possibly get lost, or encounter wandering monsters. It provides info on creating a home base and the prices for construction of castles should characters reach Name level. And that's about it.<br /><br />I am intimately familiar with the Companion and Master set, and I agree that the former provides many more ideas on political intrigue and high level (non-dungeon) adventure than any other edition of the game (and the Master set has a neat little system for characters interested in questing for immortality). However, I would argue that despite the Companion's ideas (many of which my friends and I adapted to our high level AD&D play in our youth), much of the systems are inelegant and overly mechanical, feeling less organic and "out-o-place" compared to the earlier sets. Part of the reason I wrote my own "Companion" book was my dissatisfaction with Mentzer's rules, but some of the IDEAS in it are good...or at least interesting.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-67448818656738799092012-01-05T20:42:02.115-08:002012-01-05T20:42:02.115-08:00I think you're largely right except for a hole...I think you're largely right except for a hole in the middle: The Expert set was largely about wilderness adventuring and I think it was largely successful in explaining and supporting that concept for the time.The later Companion and MAster sets from the Mentzer boxes went even farther afield from Basic Tomb Robbing. <br /><br />I'd also say that later 2E was getting more and more into "telling stories" and less about the pure dungeon crawl, which gave us 3E's back to the dungeon reactionary approach.<br /><br />I'm not saying any of these are wrong, but I think any time D&D has approached doing something different, some part of the audience has shouted it down and driven it back onto its original course, for good or ill.Blacksteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16289298640828309072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-45809375597001730532012-01-05T18:56:20.214-08:002012-01-05T18:56:20.214-08:00Two words: Magic Realm. It attempts to distill t...Two words: Magic Realm. It attempts to distill the fantasy literature tropes into a playable game of magic carpets, dragon slaying, friendship and betrayal, mighty swords, and so on.<br /><br />Part of the problem with playing D&D "as intended" is that you need the players and DM to already be familiar with the literature in order to emulate it.<br /><br />I'm as guilty as any, therefore, of "playing it wrong" in my youth, as I was ignorant of the literary roots of D&D when I started playing.Aaron E. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789462075611254929noreply@blogger.com