tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post6370234276955009042..comments2024-03-28T00:41:13.514-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: "The World's Greatest Superhero RPG"JBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-71335360529168387982010-06-08T01:20:02.166-07:002010-06-08T01:20:02.166-07:00THAT being said, tying the GM fiat TO the resource...<i>THAT being said, tying the GM fiat TO the resource (awarding hero points for using fiat) isn't a bad idea at all. That particular system isn't in the 1st edition rules however.</i><br /><br />In 1st ed, Villains got equitable Villain Points to spend fpr that stuff. The idea being that the villains would blow all their Villain Points in the first round (thus escaping with the girlfriend while the hero has to ctach falling masonry to save the bystanders), but the heroes woudl then have more in the rematch and beat up the baddies.<br /><br />Steve basically said that, though he felt it wa sa good idea, it didn't work out so well in play, because the heroes woudl quickly get into a pissing mtach with the villains and feel compelled to win the first round. Which actually gets to the crux of this discussion:<br /><br />How far should supers-game emulate supers-comics?<br /><br />See, D&D, though informed by many sources, isn't directly emulating any of them. It is it's own thing. But supers-game tend to want to emulate comcis i.e. emulate particualr kind of stories. And that's a very different thing. If you want your game to model comics, then the game has to be fairly rail-roady. If yuo don't want that, then yuo have to accept that the game is going to play out in it's own, different fashion.<br /><br />Oh, and I feel compelled to add two things:<br /><br />1. Even though I think 1 st edition M&M is more fun, I fully supported the way in which 2nd ed added Complications. I thought it was an amazingly good idea when I first saw it in Truth & Justice (before 2nd ed M&M) and can no longer imagine going back to the HERO-style way of getting more character-points for that kind of thing.<br /><br />2. I've been posting a bit on old-school gaming and supers-games via a random-roll method for Truth & Justice. It may--or may not--be of interest to you. The most recent post is http://wheel-of-samsara.blogspot.com/2010/06/random-powers-in-truth-justice-smaller.htmlMatthew Slepinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056247825064943944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-1026065724358642732010-06-06T09:00:47.094-07:002010-06-06T09:00:47.094-07:00fairly tedious and clunky should be the M&M ta...<i>fairly tedious and clunky</i> should be the M&M tagline. It could be in one of those big red starbursts, letters increasing in size, seeming to leap off the cover!<br /><br />M&M is a good effort, but misbegotten.rainswepthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06165059567790555748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-74765728651792188122010-06-05T20:10:05.794-07:002010-06-05T20:10:05.794-07:00JB: there will always be a power inequity in tradi...JB: there will always be a power inequity in traditional GM-and-players games, so that's nothing new. A DM all the way back to OD&D could set up any number of unbalanced situations with the only check being the willingness of his players to show up every session for the abuse. He could stack the odds to impossible heights against the players even if he rolls everything in the open. <br /><br />You can't have "equitable" when one side of the table has the final say on everything- the best you can hope for is that the person with that power is trustworthy enough to use it for the enjoyment of everyone.<br /><br />But enough of that! It's been long enough since I've played 1e M&M that the differences between the two editions have faded out - 1e was great but 2e has that extra bit of polish. It sounds like 3e (and DC Heroes) will shed even more of the d20 trappings, so you might want to check that out when they become available.drnuncheonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09550380906129633611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-70785736279783467162010-06-05T18:35:07.945-07:002010-06-05T18:35:07.945-07:00@ drnuncheon: If player fudging is limited to a fi...@ drnuncheon: If player fudging is limited to a finite resource like hero points (and one with very specific rules/limits on how far the "fudging" can be pushed)...well that's not really equitable.<br /><br />THAT being said, tying the GM fiat TO the resource (awarding hero points for using fiat) isn't a bad idea at all. That particular system isn't in the 1st edition rules however.<br /><br />@ Sovereign-E: : )<br /><br />@ Psiko-N: I will take a look for it. Thanks!JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-10050043438152877692010-06-05T15:23:02.308-07:002010-06-05T15:23:02.308-07:00@JB: Let’s look at your example again:
First, no v...@JB: Let’s look at your example again:<br />First, no villain worth his black boots would try to kidnap the hero’s girlfriend without planning a diversion for our hero. Then the Welshman must decide between saving a dozen innocent strangers or the woman he loves. Even if the Intrepid Archer makes a desperate shot to rescue his lady-love, and the arrow strikes true, our hero and his breathless companion find that what they thought was Dr. Destructor himself was in fact one of his many decoy robots!!!<br /><br />What could be Dr. Destructor’s dastardly plan? Why would he want to kidnap our hero’s girlfriend? Could this have all been a diversion to keep the Wiley Welshman away from something much bigger?<br />Bidding his golden-tressed girlfriend a tearful adieu, the Welshman speeds off in his nearby Welsh-mobile, determined to trace Dr. Destructor’s path back to his lair and uncover the nature of the villainy his arch-enemy has planned….<br />But, as the Welsh-mobile’s dust cloud begins to settle on the horizon, an inky black figure emerges from the shadows and inches closer to our hero’s lady-love. A hand reaches towards her neck. She gasps as hands of darkness wrap around her tender throat. She tries to scream, but she cannot!<br />As the shadowy figure carries her limp form out of the shattered ruins of the brownstone, it is made clear that her emergency signal locket has fallen to the ground, inactive.<br /><br /><br />Ultimately, if your biggest beef with the system is that it says it’s okay to fudge a roll once in a while, then that’s not much of a problem.Sovereigneternalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05867111882267008266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-89364564370692890192010-06-05T14:03:12.776-07:002010-06-05T14:03:12.776-07:00Actually, JB, M&M *does* give the player the a...Actually, JB, M&M *does* give the player the ability to fudge his rolls, in the form of Hero Points - you can spend one to reroll (with a guaranteed result of 11+). You can also spend it for a one-time use of a feat or power you don't actually have (the equivalent of the old MSH "power stunt"), shake off fatigue, get a hint, etc. Hero points are an enormous part of what lets M&M run like a comic book.<br /><br />I can't dig up my M&M1e book, but the second edition says explicitly that if the GM uses GM Fiat to the players detriment, they should receive a hero point. Allowing the villain to escape is one of the examples given.<br /><br />By handling it this way and attaching it to the hero point resource, M&M brings fudging out of the realm of cheating and fun-killing and makes it a part of the actual game. It feels a lot less like you're getting the shaft if the GM hands you something that makes you more effective later.drnuncheonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09550380906129633611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-67658147176614641332010-06-05T12:45:07.978-07:002010-06-05T12:45:07.978-07:00@ Trey: I don't think it's a problem of th...@ Trey: I don't think it's a problem of the GM not being trustworthy or being a "good guy" (or "gal"). But the conceit lies in letting the GM decide what is best or "most fun" for the players.<br /><br />Let's say the session starts with Dr. Destructor blasting a hole in the brownstone, and grabbing my character's girlfriend for some nefarious plan. My PC, the Welshman, grabs his trusty longbow, visions of past girlfriends being left in refrigerators, and fires an arrow at the fleeing villain's back.<br /><br />By fortunate happenstance, I roll a critical hit, inflict maximum damage, and the GM blows his save, and the fiend is disabled. Yay!<br /><br />Except the GM doesn't WANT the villain to be disabled...he's crafted an elaborate story around Dr. Desctructor's plot and the kidnapping of the girl and doesn't want the foe to be taken out of action so early in the session. To the GM, it will be "more fun and interesting" for the villain to evade the arrow, or be un-damaged by it, and make off with the girl.<br /><br />But to ME, the player, it is both MORE fun and MORE interesting for my character to be effective at what he does...saving his girl with his trusty bow. I WANT to take down the bad guy, I made the good rolls, and now I'M the one getting the shaft instead of the GM's pet NPC.<br /><br />That f'ing blows. Why bother rolling at all if the GM is going to fudge, based on fiat? Hell, why bother showing up to the game at all if my decisions don't have an impact when they are IMPORTANT and DESIRABLE to me?<br /><br />Because *I* did NOT want my lady-friend to be absconded. It mattered to my character, and now *I* am NOT having fun and am, frankly, a bit DISinterested in what happens next.<br /><br />See? Both I and the GM started with the same goal in mind...to have fun playing a superhero game. But somewhere along the way, our ideas of what were "fun and interesting" diverged from one another...and the game explicitly comes down on the side of the GM as if only the GM can decide what is fun and interesting.<br /><br />Looked at another way: what if the GM had NO interest in whether or not Dr. Destructor got away with the Welshman's girl...but I, the player, cared A LOT. But instead of rolling a critical hit, what if I roll a Natural 1, instead?<br /><br />To me it would be both more fun AND interesting to fudge this dice roll...to at least get a hit and wound the bad guy instead of looking like a jackass, maybe give the character and NPC chances for banter about the scratch/scar later in the adventure. But the rules don't give the PLAYER the option of fudging the dice or hiding his rolls. <br /><br />Lame.<br /><br />@ Rich: I HAVE been checking out BASH. I know it's been working well for some folks. I'll take a gander at the podcast. Thanks.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-16717531314544076682010-06-05T11:48:51.355-07:002010-06-05T11:48:51.355-07:00If you're looking for "Old School Aesthet...If you're looking for "Old School Aesthetic" in a Supers game, I recommend ICONS, developed by Steve Kenson, the same man behind the Mutants & Masterminds game.<br />It's based on the FATE system and has full random character creation, powers and all, for quick character creation, a sort of Silver Age anything goes sensibility, and quick and fun gameplay.<br />He talks a bit about the system here:<br />http://www.adamantentertainment.com/?p=47Psikonetichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04907109219513672843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-21136800363988952962010-06-05T07:19:11.555-07:002010-06-05T07:19:11.555-07:00@ JB - I heard a pod-cast on "The Game's...@ JB - I heard a pod-cast on "The Game's The Thing" (episode 68) about this game called Basic Action Super Heroes (BASH). http://www.bashrpg.com/ You might be interested in this rules system for Super Heroes. It seemed more in line with the old school asthetic and actually says he aimed to create something similar to the "old DnD basic book" and talks about playing basic dnd and why he really liked that style of gaming. It has a point buy system but the creator is working on an "Awesome Powers" book that would have pre-crafted powers and a random generation system. You should at least check out the podcast.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05449933184261945913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-42388320685735169992010-06-05T04:04:15.369-07:002010-06-05T04:04:15.369-07:00Mutants & Masterminds is a cool system, I thin...Mutants & Masterminds is a cool system, I think, though like you suggested, I find for my tastes it could be a little rules-lighter at times.<br /><br />The "DM fudging the occasional die-roll thing." I suppose that <i>might</i> worry player's in games where they felt they were adversarial with the GM--but even with utterly transparent die-rolls the GM's control of the antagonists, setting, and set-up would seem to stack the deck in his favor, anyway.<br /><br />Laregly, I think the harms you suggest are remedied by the player's trusting the GM and seeing him as sharing their goals (i.e. <i>everybody's</i> fun)--something I don't think die rolls alone are likely to create.Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.com