tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post5511520776085207274..comments2024-03-28T00:41:13.514-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Unfinished DungeonsJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-30353775205023809912010-01-09T08:34:59.355-08:002010-01-09T08:34:59.355-08:00I agree 100% JB, and I think that you've basic...I agree 100% JB, and I think that you've basically described the two main approaches to DnD adventuring. One emphasizes resource management and a kind of exploration in which resource management provides a central, global tension. The other emphasizes, for lack of a better word, discrete "puzzles" and it is the completion of these "puzzles" that provides the central tension. A dungeon can be a puzzle all by itself, as can a task like, figure out how to escape. But the thing is tension begins to fizzle if the "puzzle" drags on too long.<br /><br />It's sort of like "reader response theory." This is an approach to writing in which the writer is supposed to think in terms of reader expectations. You establish expectations, and it is the desire to have these expectations met that pulls the reader through. A huge dungeon can be a bit like establishing an expectation in the first paragraph, but then going into 20 pages of digressions before that expectation is satisfied. Most readers aren't going to get through that kind of paper.Melhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06551480034601737297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-57565762158760872942010-01-08T06:08:28.191-08:002010-01-08T06:08:28.191-08:00@ Yesmar: : )
@ Gwd: Point taken...but even thou...@ Yesmar: : )<br /><br />@ Gwd: Point taken...but even though your group treated "goal oriented" dungeons as personal sandboxes, that wasn't necessarily the designers' intention. And if the designers intention WAS for some end goal to be reached, in both your case and mine that intention wasn't fulfilled.<br /><br />Certainly as older kids, when my co-DM and I would draw dungeons, there were certain goals associated with them. "Kill the beholder at the center of the labyrinth" or "find the princess's pet animal that fell down the well into the dungeon." While there were dungeons designed that were simple "oh ancient ruins...let's go loot 'em" not all were like that in MY campaigns. But as you suggested, we may have had different DMing styles.<br /><br />Hmm...I'm going back to bed. I've got stuff to mull over. : )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-31416584640975604012010-01-08T05:42:13.200-08:002010-01-08T05:42:13.200-08:00Well, even if there isn't a lot of backstory i...Well, even if there isn't a lot of backstory in many classic modules, my point was that in the few we played, what little there was rarely made much difference. <br /><br />"I've got a module!" was no different to us than "I've got a new dungeon drawn up!" In either, we just accepted that this was where we'd be adventuring that day, and went seeking monsters to slay and treasure to amass. It didn't matter if it was just some random series of halls, or some professionally crafted module with lots of atmospheric background to it.<br /><br />And as young DMs, we didn't fill in the gaps those modules made. As players, we didn't seek filling in the gaps of the dungeons we created. It was sort of a Field of Dreams thing. If you build it, adventurers will come!<br /><br />And with dungeons like that, we never really felt like there was anything to 'finish.' <br /><br />As we got older, we started making more adventures with 'ends' but in those early days, and even later on on many occasions, there didn't seem to be a point to an 'end' to a dungeon or a module. It was just there to be explored/raided/looted.Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-44711325236717475952010-01-07T20:05:21.687-08:002010-01-07T20:05:21.687-08:00Please blog about X2.Please blog about X2.Yesmarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12574297955275829831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-74228727875701018072010-01-07T19:12:49.100-08:002010-01-07T19:12:49.100-08:00@ CW: glad I could help! Thanks for stopping by!
...@ CW: glad I could help! Thanks for stopping by!<br /><br />@ Gwyd...you'll note that in many Old School modules, there ain't much backstory...really just the most basic of ideas. I mean, let's look at B2...why are these Chaotic clerics there really? Both in the keep and out? Are the ones in the keep related to the ones out? Never explained.<br /><br />What the hell is going on with the Kopru in X1? Where the heck did Eclavdra hook up with the Ancient Evil Elemental, and why did she turn away from Lolth? For that matter, what's up with Lolth and the devout Drow versus Eclavdra's traitorour house?<br /><br />It's left to the DMs to decide...or not. But what there isn't a whole bunch of story and metaplot thrown in...there are connected themes that still allow a huge leeway in creativity. This is missing from most modules post-Dragon Lance. And all that extra fiction? As you point out, pretty much wasted on the average adventuring party. Might as well be writing a book.<br /><br />Moldvay's X2 is an exception that I really will have to blog about sometime....JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-26233416570769758062010-01-07T14:13:56.229-08:002010-01-07T14:13:56.229-08:00Although once we did manage to find and defeat the...Although once we did manage to find and defeat the Kopru down in their mud-flat caves (my Thief even found the sword +2, charm person), we spent many many adventures on the Isle of Dread that never even came close to the Central Plateau, let alone the island within the island.<br /><br />We actually never played that many modules in my youth. My friends and I were always coming up with new dungeon ideas, so like your campaigns, we tended to have a new setting for every adventure or two. And the few modules we played tended to not be completed as well.<br /><br />I think a lot of it had to do with our DMing styles. None of us were big on dishing out rumors or hints back then. We'd just let each other's characters stumble around the areas or dungeons until they found some good loot, or were running low on spells and hit points and decided to get out of there. With the dungeons we were creating, that worked fine, as there wasn't usually a story involved with them. They were just deep places of the earth, with lots of monsters and gold inside.<br /><br />But with any sort of story module, the DM would know the 'story' but wouldn't really give out enough hints to the players about what was going on. I remember the CM adventure "Endless Stair" being a classic example. There was this whole rivalry between the dead wizard's two apprentices going on, but the players had no idea about it because I didn't give out enough backstory through the peasants/locals, and they didn't ask. If I remember right, they eventually found the hidden tomb and partially looted it, but that was it.Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-62231993583121138952010-01-07T13:16:13.165-08:002010-01-07T13:16:13.165-08:00You know, this is a really good post and good poin...You know, this is a really good post and good points. You've given me something to think about. Thanks!Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.com