tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post2555682628249990252..comments2024-03-28T00:41:13.514-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: The Secret of the Keep on the BorderlandsJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-32673703919458101402018-11-29T20:51:36.674-08:002018-11-29T20:51:36.674-08:00And the Keep can be repurposed as a bad guy fortre...And the Keep can be repurposed as a bad guy fortress. Voila! Now you have a bad guy keep that you can assault. Warren Okumahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17791150709654927742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-78348842610161288592011-10-25T14:19:17.094-07:002011-10-25T14:19:17.094-07:00If KotB were a CRPG, my little party could be snea...If KotB were a CRPG, my little party could be sneaking around pickpocketing everyone, peeking into everything, trying to get as many resources as possible before hitting the Caves. Take Exile: Escape from the Pit for example. In that CRPG, towns have their treasuries detailed and though well-protected you can often make off with them. It's possible to steal from a dragon who you're supposed to get information from, making it hostile to you. They didn't go the route of Pool of Radiance's silver dragon in the NW corner of the overland map (dragon has no treasure and you can't kill it, it just flies away). The programmer of Exile put the treasury there and it's up to you whether you want to try to steal it or not. <br /><br />It's kind of like JRPGs where you wander around looting people's cupboards for random potions and 3 GP here and there. Baldur's Gate was bad about that, and Neverwinter Nights made it a continual mini-game to spot the containers you could loot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-33983033498594833432011-09-03T13:47:31.410-07:002011-09-03T13:47:31.410-07:00Gygax was all about the sandbox. KotB was a sandbo...Gygax was all about the sandbox. KotB was a sandbox. So was Hommlet/ToEE. Even when a plot hook led you to a dungeon (e.g., defeat the giants), it was basically sandbox once you got there. Vault of the Drow was the ultimate sandbox, and it best demonstrates the principle. Initially, the party presumably goes there to avenge the people killed by the Drow-organized giant invasions, but if they stop there, they never encounter Lolth. Clearly, players were meant to explore and develop new missions in response to what they found. Striking alliances with potential enemies was expected. Ditto attacking and robbing targets of opportunity. I don't think Gygax would have been shocked if a party had tried to loot the keep. He would have rolled with it. When you put the players in your sandbox, you give them permission to play within and often beyond its parameters.Brian MacKenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12752842049666489041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-76470090026846835312011-08-31T05:00:47.132-07:002011-08-31T05:00:47.132-07:00Jokes apart, I think the setup of B2 is so generic...Jokes apart, I think the setup of B2 is so generic, that apart from what is stated on the cover, everything could happen (and in my campaigns, HAS happened.) I recall the first time I ran the module, I only had the red box, the characters where 1st level, and they were in awe of the Castellan, which I told them was an Hero of 4th level, an unthinkable (at the time) goal. It turned out that the Castellan was Lawful; but in a tyrannic way, so they took him in antipathy and made a long term goal of stealing the keep from him.Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-70240474995173982682011-08-31T04:17:53.946-07:002011-08-31T04:17:53.946-07:00Except this is contradicted straight away, startin...Except this is contradicted straight away, starting from the blurb on the cover:<br /><br />[...]plus an interesting area for characters to base themselves in (the Keep) before setting out to explore the Caves of Chaos!<br /><br />Sometimes it's useful to read a source beforehand ;)Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-50827024325608139732011-08-30T22:27:53.321-07:002011-08-30T22:27:53.321-07:00Eh, maybe. I think it's more like the situatio...Eh, maybe. I think it's more like the situation is set up to be interesting. There's no particular goal, but players can make their own. That goal might be to loot the Keep, and the information is there to do so, but that's probably not even something that Gygax was thinking about when he wrote it (except, as you say, perhaps subconsciously).faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-35439625875660691262011-08-30T17:30:26.852-07:002011-08-30T17:30:26.852-07:00@ Luke: I think you're probably right, I'm...@ Luke: I think you're probably right, I'm just thinking SUBCONSCIOUSLY Gary might have been interested in a Caves versus Keep scenario, old wargamer that he was!<br /><br />@ UWS: I did my own work-up of the Caves forces versus the Keep that was suitable for the mass combat system of my own B/X Companion. By my calculations, the Keep was stronger, though I may be mis-remembering. <br /><br />Yes, I DID want to run a mass combat (though with the PCs on the side of the "good guys"); however, the whole idea of looting the Keep has seized on my imagination.<br />; )<br /><br />@ Pierce: I want to run in YOUR games!<br />: )<br /><br />@ JasonZ: Little Keep is one of the HM modules I wanted but never got, so I can't speak to it. Sounds like their style, though!JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-37285716076823694912011-08-30T15:13:51.724-07:002011-08-30T15:13:51.724-07:00Didn't Jolly Blackburn already come to this co...Didn't Jolly Blackburn already come to this conclusion with Little Keep on the Borderland for the old 1eAD&D style Hackmaster? Unlike most of the other 'hacked' 1e adventures Little Keep was more of an expansion, but still with the idea that the players were looking for treasure and xp wherever it might be found.Jason Zavodahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13109502376214104276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-54044383708874785432011-08-30T14:53:54.797-07:002011-08-30T14:53:54.797-07:00On the subject of it stetching verisimilitude to h...On the subject of it stetching verisimilitude to have a horde of neigh random collection of orcs (two waring tribes!) goblins bugbears ogres and evil priests, my answer is a resounding. "duh!". It's the force of chaos made flesh in those caves. The one thing going for the side of law, is that they're organized lawfully. That to me is the meticulousness of their write up in kotb. We know the job of every soldier down to his sleeping quarters.UWS guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277557128674527225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-36828838547638046142011-08-30T14:50:28.656-07:002011-08-30T14:50:28.656-07:00Actually, we did rather ef up the little village, ...Actually, we did rather ef up the little village, once we got bored of the moathouse. I'm pretty sure if you stat it, we will kill it, given enough time.ze bulettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15603716850479808633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-78100861234316257112011-08-30T14:12:15.395-07:002011-08-30T14:12:15.395-07:00And for the record as I show in my CHAINMAIL write...And for the record as I show in my CHAINMAIL write up. The caves of chaos has the superior army. More hero units, and about 10 more units of normal troops than the keep. So Raggi is entertaining in his blog post, but wrong on the relative strength of CoC vs. KotB.<br /><br />The PC's will need to sway the neutral forces to the side of Law in order to turn the tide of the battle and conduct a gurrilla campaign against the caves in order to defeat the forces of chaos.UWS guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277557128674527225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-67412147678515294342011-08-30T14:08:04.294-07:002011-08-30T14:08:04.294-07:00A started a group of characters off arriving at th...A started a group of characters off arriving at the Temple of Chaos, the evil priest gave them three months to topple the Keep and left the details up to them. Some of the cave tribes were wiped out and some joined the cause. A great time was had by all.Piercehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17342275462566805167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-4766800117155581732011-08-30T14:06:12.895-07:002011-08-30T14:06:12.895-07:00KotB is a classic arnesonian CHAINMAIL skirmish se...KotB is a classic arnesonian CHAINMAIL skirmish set up between the forces of Law vs. chaos and their respective hero units with neutral forces (bandits/lizardmen) and neutral heroes (hermit+puma/spiders) that could be swayed to either side. D&D simply allowed for the players to run individual veterans, mediums, and cutpurses instead of one entire army. I suppose wiley PC's could loot the keep during the battle and make off with a goodly amount of loot.<br /><br />I wrote up KotB using arneson's FFC and Chainmail a while back:<br /><br />https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1wVLJVPsQmAt9SaDjuC-A1XbB5JlH4-y8eYbppTK3w-sUWS guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01277557128674527225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-39693988349476217422011-08-30T14:04:46.548-07:002011-08-30T14:04:46.548-07:00I don't buy it as far as being the intention o...I don't buy it as far as being the intention of module when it was released. No other modules of the era or Gygax D&D material centered around pillaging civilization (other than Lankhmar-ish thief-ish ubran adventure stuff). The keep is fleshed out because Gygax loved indulging in filling in the blanks in particular areas. The 1E DMG and PHB are full of that. <br /><br />That keep is great material that can be dropped in any campaign. I'm fairly certain I played a game in the 80's that involved a mass combat invasion of that keep.Fumershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14156302616243889562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-26359311036981847112011-08-30T13:58:00.439-07:002011-08-30T13:58:00.439-07:00Personally I like the idea that this is a sandbox ...Personally I like the idea that this is a sandbox adventure - Here's the keep, here's the local wilderness, here's the Caves of Chaos. Now what do you adventurers want to do with it? <br />I certainly agree with<br />"Now in all seriousness, it’s quite possible Gygax did NOT write B2 with the conscious idea that players should choose to assault the Keep. But even if it wasn’t conscious, he provided all the tools and information one needs to do so. Perhaps he felt that such should be an option (after all, the choices in an RPG are only limited by one’s imagination) but decided that stating so implicitly would be “sending the wrong message” (i.e. that over-throwing the one bastion of civilization in the area would be both good and desirable). "<br />If Gary had really wanted PCs to attack and loot the Keep, I think he would have said so more plainly.John Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16945534608747334150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-24002938473741850442011-08-30T13:35:20.784-07:002011-08-30T13:35:20.784-07:00I've seen folks rob various targets in the Kee...I've seen folks rob various targets in the Keep over the years, even a bit of brawling and violence requiring to escape but never a frontal assault. thieves have a darn good chance of climbing walls and the keep has a whole lot of walls.<br /><br /><br />@Zak, "The Village of Hommlet" isn't the target of that module but the super secret objective is surviving in Hommlet while exploring and adventuring.JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-91639209514710646822011-08-30T13:29:53.941-07:002011-08-30T13:29:53.941-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-28390786688598224892011-08-30T13:07:41.974-07:002011-08-30T13:07:41.974-07:00Does that mean the 23 gp in the breadbox is the se...Does that mean the 23 gp in the breadbox is the secret objective in The Village of Hommlet?Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.com