tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post1602122740361923283..comments2024-03-29T08:03:16.892-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Killing Vancian Magic (Part 2)JBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-17149873302154124522012-08-13T06:09:10.708-07:002012-08-13T06:09:10.708-07:00I agree, there are a lot of cool "alternative...I agree, there are a lot of cool "alternative" spells...however, you have to memorize them before you get to the situation. Unless your MU knows exactly what he'll be facing, would he choose protection from evil over a magic missile? I doubt it.The Angry Monkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17075199616086876028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-42798751987553054592012-08-12T23:06:43.959-07:002012-08-12T23:06:43.959-07:00@ McWeig:
RE Changing the blog title: I hope not...@ McWeig: <br /><br />RE Changing the blog title: I hope not!<br />RE Why play a fighter: to kick ass, of course!<br /><br />@ Scrivener: Nice to have the option, ja?<br /><br />@ Porphyre (& Brendan): Scroll use may be a core element of the class, but it is one largely out of a character's control until 9th (B/X) or 11th (OD&D, AD&D) level of experience. Only Holmes allows scroll scribing prior to 3E (and by that time, PCs are receiving "bonus spells" for INT).<br /><br />@ P14: Really, I am NOT talking about "combat mages."<br /><br />@ Eldric: Oh, yes, the "if you ready an action and succeed at a skill roll you can counter-spell only if you have the same spell memorized and choose to expend it to do so" rule. I played (and DM'd) 3rd Edition for two (three?) years and never saw a single use or attempt of this. I forgot it existed.<br /><br />Yes, Chainmail's version is different from 3E.<br />JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-89254616019599600072012-08-12T20:08:59.028-07:002012-08-12T20:08:59.028-07:00"[another side note: interesting that Chainma..."[another side note: interesting that Chainmail has a counter-spell mechanic unlike every single edition of D&D, but very much in-line with fantasy literature]"<br /><br />Do you mean unlike as in a different counter-spell system or unlike as in no edition of D&D has a counter-spell system?<br /><br />Because 3e has counter-spell rules.Eldric IVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12386633840449108605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-54088611547854116662012-08-12T10:17:50.322-07:002012-08-12T10:17:50.322-07:00Are you on Google Plus by any chance? There are a ...Are you on Google Plus by any chance? There are a few discussion threads about this over there, if you are interested.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-12851294850862486782012-08-12T09:26:40.368-07:002012-08-12T09:26:40.368-07:00If you're looking for a great alternate magic ...If you're looking for a great alternate magic system, I'd advise a look at FASA's Earthdawn.<br /><br />But on another note, IMHO D&D wizards don't suck, the players who play them do. Many of the 1st-level spells, if understood and used properly, are very powerful and useful.<br /><br />Party getting chased by orcs in a dungeon? Stand in a doorway, cast protection from evil, and buy them some time while the orcs just stand there.<br /><br />Want to chance the course of combat? Cast charm person on an orc and get a new ally for at least one month.<br /><br />Want to figure out that ancient mystery or magical item? Cast comprehend languages or identify.<br /><br />Need some information about who own the mansion outside town? Cast friends and go door knocking.<br /><br />Are 1st-level magic users one trick ponies? yes. But do they have the same THAC0 as a 1st-level fighter? yup. So grab that staff, cast shield, and join the fray!<br /><br />No only that, but when you consider the rules as written say the mage needs 8 hours of _uninterrupted_ rest, it sure does make choices about camping actually mean something. It becomes significant to "let the mage sleep, we need him later."<br /><br />I think more than any other class magic-user requires a creative player to be enjoyable. Those who want to just play a combat mage of any kind will have to wait to higher levels (or take feats and what-nots in other editions) to get what they want. But the joy of the magic user is using spells creatively and within the limitations of their own concept. I once played a diviner who was also a cartographer: he was the ultimate dungeoneering utility mage and it was fun, even at 1st-level.p1r8z0rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02232264043854801391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-44749827245089388732012-08-12T04:15:38.442-07:002012-08-12T04:15:38.442-07:00It's not a patch, because scroll use is a core...It's not a patch, because scroll use is a core aspect of the class (as is magic item use). I don't personally care much about emulation, but this also fits many wizards from literature and mythology, whose magic comes from items of power (like the ring of Thoth-amon).Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-56720878149690486592012-08-12T01:16:49.108-07:002012-08-12T01:16:49.108-07:00Gandalf, Elric, Jagreen = epic, LVL1 magic-user = ...Gandalf, Elric, Jagreen = epic, LVL1 magic-user = nobodyNerzenjägerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682799127301890341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-66302743796667309422012-08-12T01:06:03.849-07:002012-08-12T01:06:03.849-07:00Considering Elric, or Gandalf by the way, I always...Considering Elric, or Gandalf by the way, I always considered that those characters were covered by another archetype than the standard "nerdy-wizard-with-stars-and-moons-pointed-hat". They have some kind of genetical prédisposition for magic (Elric is the last of a long lineage of sorcerers, Gandalf is some kind of angelic avatar) allowing then to use both sword AND sorcery. In D&D terms they would be tagged "Elves". The (A)D&D wizard, with his crappy D4 hit dice, no swords and no armor would be rather the hermetic magician of the Renaissance, who tried to attain occult power by studying books.<br />I remember that, when I started mastering with my basic Mentzer Red Box, all my players choosed elves over M-U (as I did!). Much cooler for our teenage selves plus -heck!- swords AND sorcery! We didn't play past 3rd level (until my cousin acquired the Expert blue box much later), so the EXP limitations weren't so much of a dis-incentive. One should take note that -those were the days!- none of us was experienced enough to be a min-maxer or what they call today an "optimizer", but we intuitively felt that the low level M-U was under powered, so that probably makes your point.<br /><br />Another aspect is perhaps the lengthy page count about what magic items classe can and can't use (warriors can use swords, MU can't; MU can use scrolls and wands, other's can't, etc.). In Arneson FFC, you have something very similar. In litterature, the wizard is the guy with spells, but also the one who knows how to make proper use of mystical objects of power. So, maybe, heavy reliance on magic items was the M-U "thing". In one Q&A from Gygax in the <i>Strategic Review</i> , he gives the example of a MU who has two <i>sleep</i> spells memorized and three other spells on scrolls . i-e: more than half of a 2nd level MU "fire-power" comes from scrolls. <br />But one can consider that as a "patch" instead of a feature, of course.porphyre77https://www.blogger.com/profile/07620350717226228078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-38916316478158499732012-08-11T23:42:00.483-07:002012-08-11T23:42:00.483-07:00Interesting, I'm curious to see where this is ...Interesting, I'm curious to see where this is heading, meaning what sort of thing you're going to propose as an alternative. <br /><br />I can verify from my own ancient copy that Dungeon (at least the version I own) does have an optional rule allowing wizards to memorize more than the usual number of spells, at the cost of not being able to use magic swords.ScrivenerBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04861652415900436411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-18348799060765610602012-08-11T23:41:32.171-07:002012-08-11T23:41:32.171-07:00Aight, so it's question time.
Suppose we remo...Aight, so it's question time. <br />Suppose we remove the arbitrary "balancing" limitations on the magic-user; he can use any weapon (or all weapons do d6), he can wear any armor, he has the same hit points as everyone else, he has more comparable progression for his to-hit numbers and saving throws. <br /><br />So, why play a fighter? <br /><br />Granted, I'm going to an extreme by leveling the playing field in every aspect, but it really doesn't make much logical sense that a magic-user has these limitations. Of course, you could argue that for most limitations on character class. (A thief's light armor is just practical for sneaking around, but would it hamper his picking locks? A cleric won't use a sword to stab, but he'll bash your face in with a spiked mace?) <br /><br />Once we start going down this road, however, we start deconstruction classes, and the next thing you know your blog will be called "GURPS Blackrazor" and mine will be "HT Check vs. Poison" :P <br /><br />Looking forward to part three!DMWieghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03682249561077936507noreply@blogger.com