tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post990982120501461786..comments2024-03-29T00:46:13.625-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: For the Love of God...JBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-13742444760561926682020-09-24T12:52:29.848-07:002020-09-24T12:52:29.848-07:00@ Jack:
I'm not an advocate for getting rid o...@ Jack:<br /><br />I'm not an advocate for getting rid of ability scores altogether. They serve a purpose: they serve mechanical purposes in addition to helping distinguish characters. <br /><br />But I am entirely against using them as a universal resolution mechanic. It may be convenient, but it's lazy design and is fraught with multiple issues.<br /><br />That being said: to each his or her own. I was feeling especially rant-a-rific when I wrote this 18 months back. I'm not feeling as much ire today.<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-29313357429517774842020-09-24T07:54:59.271-07:002020-09-24T07:54:59.271-07:00I don't agree. If ability scores have such mar...I don't agree. If ability scores have such marginal uses, they could dissappear and the class level would take their role. <br /><br />I agree that the roll under attribute is not well suited with the game as it is played normally. <br />If we are to disregard ability scores, we can as well take them off<br />If we are to use them, we should specify at which degrees they allow which feats, and when they are automatic and when they must be rolled.Jack Tremainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906068267967864239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-11237275069891059952019-10-15T19:33:41.872-07:002019-10-15T19:33:41.872-07:00... they've got hit points, yeah?... they've got hit points, yeah? Blainehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02268731080631291578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-7127672031996726152019-08-24T10:06:22.182-07:002019-08-24T10:06:22.182-07:00Hey thanks for this. Coincidentally I've been ...Hey thanks for this. Coincidentally I've been expirementing with removing ability scores from my game all together and letting players throw against their current HP as the only save Vs danger. In place of ability scores to differentiate characters there's special ability tables at creation for each class, stuff like being able to ignore poison you've survived before or converse with the recently dead or reflect one critical hit per day.vilecultofshapeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14457093812421502016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-8109829515798541222019-08-01T19:33:37.209-07:002019-08-01T19:33:37.209-07:00@ John:
One thing I was thinking of a while back ...@ John:<br /><br />One thing I was thinking of a while back (though I never got around to posting about it) was how sexist and MALE-oriented the actual names of the ability scores are. <br /><br />[yes, this reply may seem a bit out o left field...bear with me a moment]<br /><br />Thing is, while terms like "strength" and "intelligence" seem fairly neutral (in fact ARE fairly neutral), the way we apply them in normal American English are generally not applied to female persons, nor are female persons generally measured in those terms (as opposed to applying and measuring male folks by those descriptives). As such, they might be construed as somewhat off-putting to some players, and I considered a few alternative terms to replace the original six (see? this IS relevant to your comment).<br /><br />For example, in some circles there is a stigma attached to describing women as "strong" in terms of PHYSICAL strength. Sure it's fine to say a woman is strong of mind or character, but that's not what the ability score purports to measure is it?<br /><br /> How about calling the ability FIERCENESS instead of Strength? Not "ferocity;" it's not about being bestial, but a fierce fighter is certainly desirable to the fighter class. And, oh look, that models an attack and damage bonus as well without applying that it somehow is tied to bulk and manly muscles. And there's no stigma with calling a woman "fierce," especially in the defense (physical or otherwise) of her family, friends, or country.<br /><br />Anyway, that's just one example: it *could* be done...you've given your own examples which are certainly different from the ones I came up with. However, I've kind of moved on from the idea...in my own games I've simply resolved to NOT use ability checks. Others may choose to do differently.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-24962901559090593872019-07-27T00:12:26.787-07:002019-07-27T00:12:26.787-07:00I've been treading and re-treading this topic ...I've been treading and re-treading this topic over and again in my head the last few days, and here's the conclusion I've reached: so long as ability scores purport to define a character's fundamental attributes like strength and agility and smarts and charm, people are going to want to check against them with dice rolls. This is an unfortunate function of (1) naming the scores for things like Strength and Charisma, and (2) making the scores impact characters in -other ways- than mere prime requisite XP adjustments, through things like to-hit roll modifiers and so forth.<br /><br />I think the only way to drive D&D away from ability checks is to replace the names of scores with even more abstract qualities that dis-invite the DM to call upon them, and discourage players from using them to define the sum total of their characters. The prosaic method would just be to call them Fighteryness, Thiefyness, etc., but even that invites the occasional d20 check.<br /><br />Since I use the stats chiefly as prime reqs for six basic classes (e.g. fighter, thief, monk, mage, cleric, bard), I'd go about shocking a crop of players out of the "ability scores are everything" mentality by naming them, say: Valor, Subtlety, Discipline, Mana, Piety, and Creativity. That way, you can see how each one ties to a character class, but you'd be hard pressed to "check" the stat (or even imagine how it's impacting your situation) while slogging through a dungeon.John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-48869844949368411472019-06-27T00:59:53.784-07:002019-06-27T00:59:53.784-07:00Ah, I see, thanks very much for the response :)Ah, I see, thanks very much for the response :)Red Dice Diarieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16518202580306013414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-8489108647514159902019-06-26T09:48:15.019-07:002019-06-26T09:48:15.019-07:00Really? I honestly hadn't noticed.Really? I honestly hadn't noticed.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-40072478275057750692019-06-26T09:46:53.350-07:002019-06-26T09:46:53.350-07:00@ Red Dice:
No, RDD, that's NOT the main issu...@ Red Dice:<br /><br />No, RDD, that's NOT the main issue. The MAIN issue is the lazy and ham-fisted way in which attributes have been put to mechanical use, modeling aspects of in-game effectiveness that rightly should require their own systems. It's the thoughtlessness of this and the way it leads to other problems - a cascade failure of game design - based on assumption and a desire to shortcut rule issues that arise in play, rather than apply actual time and effort to the matter. THAT's the issue.<br /><br />But, FWIW, I *do* forgive you for being wrong. I probably wasn't as clear in this post as I could have (or should have) been.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-91951867480842245772019-06-26T05:52:06.954-07:002019-06-26T05:52:06.954-07:00It seems (and please forgive me if I'm wrong) ...It seems (and please forgive me if I'm wrong) that the main issue in this post is that Attribute Scores have come to represent something different in later editions of D&D and that these changes have been carried back into those earlier editions by those who have returned to them or enjoy the many and various retro-clones. Beyond that I don't really see what the issue is TBH, Int might once have just meant what modifiers you got as a Wizard and Cha might just have affected how many hirelings you can have but the meaning changed with time, and I'm fine with that.Red Dice Diarieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16518202580306013414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-622292799451127662019-06-25T15:31:15.919-07:002019-06-25T15:31:15.919-07:00Interesting post that has made for a lot of discus...Interesting post that has made for a lot of discussion around the blogosphere; I don't agree with it exactly, but I see your point and enjoy reading other perspectives. Linking folks here again this week on my blog/podcast.Jeremy "frothsof" Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04663928183049867947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-49392298409442694322019-06-25T12:14:46.020-07:002019-06-25T12:14:46.020-07:00Ability scores are a good tool for adjucation and ...Ability scores are a good tool for adjucation and sadly no matter how much you will try to convince your players, the Fighter is gonna make fun of the Wizard with 5 STR and call him a wimp. It's impossible to devorce it and part of the fun of rolling ability scores IS imagining what kind of person your character looks like with these scores. I<br /><br />they are just nebulus 'you good at x class score' then it's pretty boring and pointless in my opinion to even keep them around. Just cut out the rolls and let me choose a class straight up then. Or just roll a d4 if you don't want Dave to play a Fighter every fucking time.<br /><br />D20 roll under is a very bad mechanic though and I agree that making it DAH MECHANIC like the seeds 2e planted eventually grew into is shit. Just glance at the Wizards STR and decide if that's good enough to lift that stone table or if he's gonna have trouble. If you need a mechanic as the outcome is unsure: Roll Reaction but use some other Ability Modifier then use the result to guide you. It's not always gonna be your preferred method but it's a method you may do a couple of times.GODOGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18441316882241462821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-1818757862405156782019-06-25T03:57:17.538-07:002019-06-25T03:57:17.538-07:00I agree with JB wholeheartedly here. I think abili...I agree with JB wholeheartedly here. I think ability checks undermine the dynamic of the game that we most want to encourage: players finding satisfying answers to the challenges we set against them. Ability checks are the "I just do it" button. Why have that river in the jungle at all if it is really just a roll 18 on a "string together a raft" check?<br /><br />The comments seem to suggest that ability checks are not a firm mechanic, but a band-aid people use at their table when their muse or the players' has failed. They arbitrarily inject false drama into the game. Which character collapses first crossing the frozen tundra? Well, if they are properly outfitted, neither. If they lack protection, who cares? Both die within minutes. Serves them right for doing that. They didn't take the Eskimo class, what kind of player just assumes their fighter can tough out -30 below in plate mail?<br /><br />One whose GM let's them solve their character's problems with ability checks.M.H.Reillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06723287934080504558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-39983592585813518522019-06-24T20:43:14.518-07:002019-06-24T20:43:14.518-07:00Great rant! I never use ability checks. I instead ...Great rant! I never use ability checks. I instead go by intuitive seat-of-the-pants guesswork: "Um, if you can roll at least an 8 on a 12-sider, you can do it." Or, if you want something more "objective", then roll a saving throw vs death ray to see if you succeed.Geoffrey McKinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00042661843714609025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-4516134940936861062019-06-24T19:51:58.966-07:002019-06-24T19:51:58.966-07:00Sorry i take the exact opposite take on this. Play...Sorry i take the exact opposite take on this. Players are not their characters. Characters are meant to do things players cannot. I use str rolls for lifting and breaking and Int for puzzles and dex for complex manipulation tasks. I Use stats for saves of a wide variety and rolling them with difficulty is my core mechanic. I dont want to play a confused crippled old man thats why i dont larp.Konsumterrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18170560484656800416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-53134624404379010582019-06-24T19:39:36.338-07:002019-06-24T19:39:36.338-07:00Make an ability check when the situation is dramat...Make an ability check when the situation is dramatic, otherwise don't. JDsivrajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10674833512849495283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-17093891490659713362019-06-24T18:22:37.125-07:002019-06-24T18:22:37.125-07:00Answering both your comments quite simply - Yes, t...Answering both your comments quite simply - Yes, the GM could say my Dwarf knows about Trolls. Do all Dwarves automatically know about Trolls? Do they now that the GM made this call? A Knowledge or Intelligence check would tell us whether or not MY Dwarf knows about Trolls. <br /><br />As FRDave notes, it is best used exactly as he describes it: When something is implausible but not impossible. <br /><br />If it's been established that my Dwarf is from the region where the Troll's Keep is located, sure just give him the info. If he's not but he might have heard something, have him roll. Why not? It's up to the player to make use of the info or not, or make the best of not knowing. Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-21506835488301485582019-06-24T16:11:43.492-07:002019-06-24T16:11:43.492-07:00Here is a crazy idea: maybe it is a matter of tast...Here is a crazy idea: maybe it is a matter of taste?<br /><br />In my own B/X clone, class is more important than abilities, but in 5e it is 50-50 split, which many people seem to like.<br /><br />Some people want "strength" to mean "strength"... I don't really blame them. If ability scores mean so little, I can play something like SotU which ignores them.Eric Diazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09196219031821755216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-17884313055877643272019-06-24T15:31:16.386-07:002019-06-24T15:31:16.386-07:00That time I was playing 3.5 and decided to throw a...That time I was playing 3.5 and decided to throw a literal wrench in the works of a giant machine. In the real world that would result in bad things for both the wrench and the machine. In 3.5, however, <i>nothing</i> happened because the DC was 25 and I didn't make the roll. I have never been more frustrated at a gaming table.<br /><br />While I do use the occasional ability check when what a player describes is implausible but not impossible, if it would work in the real world why make the player roll to see if reality and common sense suddenly cease to exist?FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-47637598283313214802019-06-24T14:44:52.801-07:002019-06-24T14:44:52.801-07:00Meh?
I get the dislike of skill systems and don&#...Meh?<br /><br />I get the dislike of skill systems and don't disagree with the historical derivation of stats you describe, but at the same time I like a mechanical backstop for non-combat task resolution - I want a way besides guessing or the convoluted thieves skill system to know if a PC can do some bit of acrobatics or how well a wizard can recognize an obscure magical symbol. <br /><br />My personal D&D stat shibboleth is with stat bonuses and penalties over +1/-1 - which create stat inflation and render stat checks effectively meaningless because to be decent at a class a character needs a high stat or two.<br /><br />Personally I use both skills and stat checks, but try to use them minimally - generally only for tasks that are inherently dangerous and outside of player knowledge. Can you climb from your ship's rigging to that of another - while holding onto your crossbow? I'd make someone roll 4D6 under Dex for that unless they were a thief or otherwise had an acrobatics skill. <br /><br />For your example - PCs can't just whip up a ship with some wood, tools and a stat check (or skill check) but PCs might want to build a raft with rope and a few logs to escape an island or cross a river and I think some mechanical resolution system would be useful there should the jerry-rigged raft get caught in a storm or attacked by a giant goldfish. <br /><br />Stat checks are somewhat like preemptive saving throws that allow the GM to provide a coherent metric for the amount of risk involved in a player scheme beyond offering simple failure or success. You can tell a player some scheme requires a 3D6 or 6D6 under dexterity (the character is competent and knows both their limits and roughly how hard it might be to do something like pole-vault over a chasm) and let them weigh the risk. That's a useful addition to the GM's tool kit for arbitrating player actions and offers a clear way of describing danger. Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-49399834084828589712019-06-24T14:14:42.484-07:002019-06-24T14:14:42.484-07:00> My Dwarf Character may know things about Trol...> <i>My Dwarf Character may know things about Trolls that I don't. Roll an Intelligence Check to see if he knows anything helpful.</i><br /><br />Or, you know, the GM could just TELL you "because you are a dwarf, you know these things about trolls." Because it's the GM's job to tell you what your character senses, so that you can make an informed guess about what to do.Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-54338258324395892462019-06-24T12:25:52.827-07:002019-06-24T12:25:52.827-07:00D&D is not defined.D&D is not defined.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-52735404228482745352019-06-24T12:17:40.230-07:002019-06-24T12:17:40.230-07:00D&D is not a game of explicit rules to be foll...D&D is not a game of explicit rules to be followed to the letter without improvising or interpretation. Venger Satanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447932700800930510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-559214621680546552019-06-24T12:06:02.607-07:002019-06-24T12:06:02.607-07:00So I mostly agree. I dislike ability checks as a c...So I mostly agree. I dislike ability checks as a catch-all sub-system for anything, and I'm not a fan of true skill systems. INT, WIS, CHA... those have no place be used when role-playing and player skill are to be applied.<br /><br />On the other hand, I don't think ability checks were originally -just- meant to be those narrow definitions; they've definitely been interpreted as more than that, both by TSR and the player-base on the whole, for a lot longer. And there's two main reasons for that:<br /><br />1) Distinction. There's nothing to physically distinguish two characters without physical stats. Is this guy stronger than that guy? You could do something like OD&D hit dice, and tie physique directly to Hit Dice. But in most systems, it's generally simpler to do STR.<br /><br />2) Mechanical Resolution. The things you brought up for Constitution - disease, etc. - are all factors that really can come up in play. If not a direct ability check, having them be at least influenced by scores - in the same manner as resurrection survival, opening doors, etc. - also seems fair.<br /><br />As a general principle in favor of putting class in the forefront of character competency, and player skill as the driving factor of the mind, I agree fully.Rosenritterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05708668233952612105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-53078575477600799922019-06-24T11:12:17.878-07:002019-06-24T11:12:17.878-07:00[cont...]
I get what you're saying, JB. This...[cont...]<br /><br />I get what you're saying, JB. This bathwater is really, really dirty. It has been used for several days running and now there are little bits of feces floating in it and yes, very much, this bathwater really needs to be thrown out and the baby properly cleaned.<br /><br />But let's keep the baby, hm? Let's establish careful, rational moments for the cleanliness of the bathwater, to ensure we're not dropping a lot of bad chemicals and other substances in it that could seriously hurt the baby. Let's make the bathwater sweet-smelling and purposeful for the baby's health and well-being. Let's make sure we understand the purpose of bathwater and why we employ it properly and with common sense.<br /><br />Dirty bathwater is not the baby's fault.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.com