tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post970196464198394320..comments2024-03-29T08:03:16.892-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: JustificationJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-51534314396591142332021-10-06T10:37:29.288-07:002021-10-06T10:37:29.288-07:00Fair enough.
I would like to clarify what I was ...Fair enough. <br /><br />I would like to clarify what I was trying to say earlier. To get people—players and new DMs—to invest in the 1e rules, I think it will be necessary for experienced 1e DMs to advocate for the rules, and mentor players to be 1e DMs. My understanding is that new players in the early days of D&D were taught the game by older brothers and friends who started with the little brown books.<br />cavalier973https://www.blogger.com/profile/16018249706585207161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-9181766106286604882021-10-06T10:18:14.429-07:002021-10-06T10:18:14.429-07:00And the pay is so good!
(see my Patreon page)
I...And the pay is so good! <br /><br />(see my Patreon page)<br /><br />It's not that I won't be vitriolic and unreasonable, I just want to think about the words I would use, and whether or not if there's anything helpful and/or constructive to build one/with.<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-66591917928776007012021-10-06T09:00:32.723-07:002021-10-06T09:00:32.723-07:00Be as vitriolic and unreasonable as you like.
Tha...Be as vitriolic and unreasonable as you like.<br /><br />That’s what we pay you for.cavalier973https://www.blogger.com/profile/16018249706585207161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-8968742547278863682021-10-06T07:49:47.868-07:002021-10-06T07:49:47.868-07:00I don't know that blog, or "The Pool of R...I don't know that blog, or "The Pool of Radiance" (neither the CRPG nor the module)...however, computer RPGs are the (planned) subject of my next post.<br /><br />I agree with your final assessment (that few modern players will have the chance to play "real" D&D). Some of the earlier stuff in the post I'm less agreeable with...but that may just be personal opinion, and I'd like to think on it a bit before posting a (hopefully measured!) response.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-5346677890213960602021-10-06T07:26:50.794-07:002021-10-06T07:26:50.794-07:00I agree with the assertion that 1e is “real” D&...I agree with the assertion that 1e is “real” D&D. It was the game most people played “back in the Day”, from what I have gathered on various fora and message boards concerning the topic. It was Gygax’s definitive edition, right?<br /><br />I don’t know if that means that 1e is the best version of the rules to actually play.<br /><br />I have digital copies of the 1e rules (and, by the way, thanks, WOTC, for making everything available for purchase. Some more POD would be nice). I don’t know if I will ever take the time to set up and run a 1e game, though. I rarely look at the rules. I would happily play in a 1e D&D game, though.<br /><br />The essential element with any D&D (or any tabletop rpg) product is the game master. Who is going to run the game? Does the DM’s guide draw a person’s interest enough to invest the time to create an adventure and run people through it?<br /><br />I just glanced through the 1e DMG. There are a lot of topics covered. I see that it has a sample dungeon—a big one. That’s awesome. My interest is piqued. But, I doubt I will run it, because I have invested time in other game systems, and the familiarity makes these other systems seem easier to run.<br /><br />B/X (and BECMI) especially is good at helping the DM, because the step-by-step rules for creating a dungeon feel very similar to creating a character for the player. As you roll randomly for room contents, a story about the place begins to build in the mind—why it was built; why it was abandoned. All that stuff. The 1e DMG gives a similar step-by-step process in Appendix A: Random Dungeon generation. It doesn’t seem as user friendly as the B/X rules, though. Plus, there are a slew of other rules to take into consideration for running a game. So, one would need to be invested in the system to take the time to properly build and run a 1e dungeon/adventure “by the book”. Over time, of course, the process would get easier, but there are real-world considerations (jobs, players moving away, etc.) that act as obstacles to taking time to learn the system. Also, if there are easier alternatives that provide a similar experience, there is not much incentive to switch to the more complicated rules. Playing 1e may be more fun, but it also has to be fun to run, I think.<br /><br />I recently watched a YouTube video of a group of players giving their impressions of playing a one-shot 4th edition D&D game. Their almost unified response was “it’s too much!” Too much tracking of powers and conditions and the like. I get the impression they play either 5e or Pathfinder (they didn’t really say). In any case, when I skim through the 1e DMG, and see a lot of rules that are, in my opinion, haphazardly organized, I think, “Too much!” <br />Going back to the 4e video; if one were to subsequently listen to the podcasts of Season 1 of “Acquisitions, inc.”, or watch the more recently posted sessions of Matt Colville’s 4e game “Dusk”, one would not hear/see people bored and confused by the rules. In each of the latter cases, the players had an experienced DM that knew the rules. I bring this up to reiterate my argument that The DM is essential. Therefore, the DMG needs to draw the prospective DM in enough to warrant the time it would take to set up and run a game. I am not sure that the 1e DMG does that for most prospective DMs.<br /><br />I don’t think most modern players will get a chance to play “real” D&D.<br /><br />To switch topics: do you ever look at a blog called the Computer RPG Addict? He is trying to play every CRPG published. He is into the games published in the late 1980’s/early 1990’s. The reason I bring it up is that he discovered that the computer game “Pool of Radiance” had an accompanying tabletop module published by TSR (“Ruins of Adventure”, or something like that). He won the computer game some years ago, but he is replaying it while referencing the module. I thought you might find it interesting.cavalier973https://www.blogger.com/profile/16018249706585207161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-67570966165719739882021-10-03T08:55:01.004-07:002021-10-03T08:55:01.004-07:00@ Dan:
*poke*
[per your request]@ Dan:<br /><br />*poke*<br /><br />[per your request]JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-12688155701242287422021-10-01T16:40:39.767-07:002021-10-01T16:40:39.767-07:00I agree but I would also say that both editions of...I agree but I would also say that both editions of AD&D are the same game, and that all the variations of basic are the same game as well.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10988755674575933713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-9886804023919547872021-10-01T15:02:33.590-07:002021-10-01T15:02:33.590-07:00Thanks for the kind words…appreciate it.
The “nex...Thanks for the kind words…appreciate it.<br /><br />The “next installment” has been posted.<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-17192942859007019652021-10-01T14:30:26.040-07:002021-10-01T14:30:26.040-07:00I just want to say that I've really enjoyed yo...I just want to say that I've really enjoyed your examination of this subject matter. I don't agree with all of your points, but you've obviously put thought into them and I appreciate that you're willing to take and defend what seems to be an unpopular stance. I'm a 2e player at heart, but that's due to nostalgia much more than playability or rules coherency or being the "true" system.<br /><br />For me at least, there is a certain special feeling I get opening the AD&D 1e DMG that I don't get with any other book from any other edition. I look forward to the next installment!Jason Gunderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11206196654542839692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-26990741374234754132021-10-01T13:26:51.178-07:002021-10-01T13:26:51.178-07:00If we are going on adventures as a basis of qualit...If we are going on adventures as a basis of quality then B/X wins hands down. sevenbastardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11961009160456478009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-64386393282406670512021-10-01T11:51:22.480-07:002021-10-01T11:51:22.480-07:00It's the fact that different editions of dnd a...It's the fact that different editions of dnd aren't editions at all but completely different games. You might say 3.0 and 3.5 are different editions of the same game. But there is no way 3e and 4e and 5e are just new editions with minor changes. In general rpgs misuse the word edition.Lance Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817319325489613672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-26258973502171398812021-10-01T07:52:04.879-07:002021-10-01T07:52:04.879-07:00Isn't it funny how there's no "editio...Isn't it funny how there's no "edition wars" with Warhammer 40K, even though they've put out 9+ editions? <br /><br />Just "edition fatigue."<br /><br />If I had to guess, I'd say this lack of acrimony between WH40K aficionados is due to A) continued unification of vision, B) minor variant in core rules, C) adherence to principals of GAME (no one's "fudging" dice rolls in a tabletop battle!).<br /><br />D&D has little of that.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-3833172318677750352021-10-01T05:26:36.080-07:002021-10-01T05:26:36.080-07:00In the grim dark future of D&D 6 there is only...In the grim dark future of D&D 6 there is only edition war.ViPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252560131486864041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-28903773782897003432021-10-01T00:31:24.242-07:002021-10-01T00:31:24.242-07:00Sounds good. Fingers crossed.
; )Sounds good. Fingers crossed.<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-18473258577122065632021-09-30T20:53:32.395-07:002021-09-30T20:53:32.395-07:00I suggested, and you followed up on a Ravenloft su...I suggested, and you followed up on a Ravenloft suggestion I made. Very much appreciated. Keep C2 out of sight, and maybe sometime soon, in person gaming will be a thing once more, and I can run it again somewhere local. I love bringing old school modules to the table with old schoolers who never played them, or have forgotten the details.Sir Robilarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00007504465124076115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-84680144880281740992021-09-30T20:44:13.846-07:002021-09-30T20:44:13.846-07:00@ Sir Rob:
Wish I could make it...I've never ...@ Sir Rob:<br /><br />Wish I could make it...I've never played, run, or read C2. But even without the pandemic (which makes my family hesitant for MY attendance at cons), October is VERY busy month for me. I just don't have a free weekend. <br /><br />Hopefully next summer.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-26914665051683284262021-09-30T19:59:25.994-07:002021-09-30T19:59:25.994-07:00I'm just going to comment from personal gaming...I'm just going to comment from personal gaming experience. I started with BECMI when it came out, few/no players so read more than played. My real playing started with 2nd edition which I loved. But a lot of things in 2nd edition (skills, proficiency slots, and all the supplements) started a slippery slope that started a trend, and a change in player culture/behavior. I played and ran plenty of 3.5... never felt right... 5 foot movement mapping, attacks of opportunity, players thought they should never die, rolling up characters took hours with players dreaming of their character at level 30. Never tried 4e and searched for old school... never looked back. I have a true love for B/X (simplicity makes it so easy to bring in new players, non-gamers, spouses, kids) and avoids all the trappings that first started metabolizing in 2e. I've run lots of B/X and AD&D since then... and I love and respect both... but gravitate to AD&D. I'm a strategy war gamer as well, and the extra complexity in AD&D is a just-right fit for me. The AD&D published DM Screen (or my own printouts) gives me most of what I need for running a game without needing to page through and parse the gygaxian prose. I save that for my own reading time. BTW, I'll be running an AD&D tournament game (C2 Ghost Tower of Inverness) at DragonCon in Seattle in a few weeks.Sir Robilarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00007504465124076115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-54902613309266951322021-09-30T16:36:59.287-07:002021-09-30T16:36:59.287-07:00I don’t know enough about Marxism to say if I fit ...I don’t know enough about Marxism to say if I fit their company. However, I do know quite a few Mexican Catholics.<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-58999630121823779842021-09-30T15:58:12.970-07:002021-09-30T15:58:12.970-07:00"Why is Mary venerated as much (or more than)..."Why is Mary venerated as much (or more than) Jesus in Mexican Catholics? Because the Spanish couldn’t stomp the mother goddess out of the indigenous religion when attempting to instill their patriarchal dominion."<br /><br />Well, that's an ignorant, offensive and embarrassing statement. Hell is chock full of Marxists though so you'll have plenty of company.Korgothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04683370654357044679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-39390642340243207342021-09-30T15:26:13.893-07:002021-09-30T15:26:13.893-07:00@ Dan:
Can you give me some examples of good 2E a...@ Dan:<br /><br />Can you give me some examples of good 2E adventures? Either published ones...perhaps ones that you learned from...or ones that you played in? Or if most of the 2E adventures you've run have been your own, can you describe one or two of favorites of yours (and your players)?JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-35520287495203244852021-09-30T14:16:53.245-07:002021-09-30T14:16:53.245-07:00You keep calling Individual XP "standard"...You keep calling Individual XP "standard" when it's specifically called out in the book as an optional rule. Never used it, and never played with any else who used it either. I agree that the "one-tenth of the XP needed to advance" guideline wasn't well-playtested, but it's very simple to disregard that and use the other guideline. Directly from the text: "Thus, if the DM knows there are roughly 1,200 experience points worth of monsters, the story award should not exceed this amount." That's pretty direct, and the only reason the nebulous "should not exceed" language is there is because there's a later section about how different groups prefer different rates of advancement and the DM can tinker with XP awards to speed things up or slow them down.<br /><br />If you just use the maximum recommended amount of XP, equal to the total value of monsters which might be encountered, then you end up with a split about on par with other classic editions. Specifically, when GP is worth XP, then typically about 20 to 30 percent of XP comes from combat and the rest comes from treasure. Assuming the average group only actually engages in somewhere between one-third and one-half of possible battles, and either avoids or never encounters the rest, then around 20 to 30 percent of XP will come from combat and the rest will come from adventure completion awards.<br /><br />I have no idea where you get the idea that this discourage self-starters. An adventure is an adventure, regardless of whether the DM lays it out on a platter or the PCs choose it themselves. Finding a goblin lair in the wilderness and looting it is a completed adventure just as much as slogging through a boring Dragonlance module is. I have never run a game with XP for treasure in my life, and player engagement has never been a problem.<br /><br />As for loot take, I never bought many modules, so it's certainly possible they were being excessively stingy. I always did think the entire section about Monty Haul campaigns was a bit of an overreaction, but maybe it was a bigger problem in the '80s? I dunno. Either way, I found that it made the economy much more important when a party of four or five adventurers only have 1000 gold pieces to split among themselves by the time they're 2nd level. They actually still have to worry about things like rope and rations, plate mail won't come until 3rd or 4th level (making chain mail +1 or +2 a significant find rather than a booby prize), and whether to buy horses right away or wait until a higher level is a significant financial decision. It makes the players live at an economic scale where they can't just flippantly throw gold coins at every problem or inconvenience because they have tens of thousands of gold pieces per person and nothing costs enough to deplete their hoards unless they want a sailing ship or are Name Level and ready to build strongholds.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-62888939170101448572021-09-30T13:36:21.318-07:002021-09-30T13:36:21.318-07:00@ Unknown:
It's more than not wanting folks t...@ Unknown:<br /><br />It's more than not wanting folks to shitcan AD&D. The reason I'm using the semantics I'm using (rough though they are) is to make the point that AD&D is THE system to play. My concession that "okay, playing other versions is still 'playing D&D,' have fun" is me throwing up my hands at the hurt feelings I've engendered by coming in too hot on the subject.<br /><br />Sometimes the truth hurts.<br /><br />It's not just about "having fun." Watching baseball is fun. Coaching soccer is fun. Drinking beer is fun. Lots of ways to have fun out there.<br /><br />Anyhoo...I'm re-reading your comment and trying to reconcile "you write well" with the phrases "your choice of words sucks ass" and "poorly worded diatribe."<br /><br />Here's the thing Unknown. I'm not debating here. It's not me talking about my "preference" in ice cream. I'm telling folks why one published edition of D&D is a complete system of fantasy adventure gaming and why other systems are not. Period.<br /><br />I'm trying to do people a service. If that "triggers" them...um, sorry about that? JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-77596039266923069682021-09-30T08:50:51.916-07:002021-09-30T08:50:51.916-07:00I get it now. You do not want folks shitcan AD&am...I get it now. You do not want folks shitcan AD&D1e especially since it was the foundation upon which modern gaming was built. That's great, I support you 5000 percent. Your choice of words sucks ass though. Using true and framing things as ultimates does you a disservice to your message and actually seems to support the negative criticisms of old school play and players.<br />Again I support more players should experience AD&D1e and gain the valuable design lessons and flaws it has and the fun to be had enjoying its rules abd play- well some of them imo.<br /><br />Maybe a shift in tone and semantics will help the cause more.<br /><br />I would get jazzed seeing your actual play and excitement over this edition of play rather than this poorly worded diatribe. You write well, it's those trigger words that seem to detract from the cause.<br /><br />Seriously show me and others just how awesome play is, that would sell it. This way seems doomed to an ice cream flavor debate.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17690743781700166627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-62434103095689565182021-09-30T08:16:18.343-07:002021-09-30T08:16:18.343-07:00I had to go look up "auteur theory." I&#...I had to go look up "auteur theory." I'm not sure I buy it myself. The original Star Wars movies benefitted greatly from Lucas's (then) wife being a talented film editor. And yet we assign George all the credit. <br /><br />Certainly AD&D has pieces from many of EGG's crew: Blume and Ward are evident in the Boot Hill and Gamma Ward stuff, Mike Carr, Arneson, Rob Kuntz. Many of the core classes were taken from independent contributors to The Strategic Review magazine. And Kask was the editor of the DMG (at least...I can't remember if he also did the PHB). Many parts from the magic items list were penned by others (gosh, but I forget the guy's name right now).<br /><br />But I think it's okay to say the vision was steered by Gygax. He had final say in what was (and was not) included. <br /><br />If you take out the overwritten prose and snarky "Gary-isms," you'll still find instructions on how to play the game, run the game, set up and conduct campaigns...which are the heart of true D&D play and the natural outgrowth of the simplified instructions found in B/X and OD&D.<br /><br />[mm...probably a subject for its own post]<br /><br />Later AD&D sets (NOT the various "basics," but all the way down to 5E) largely borrow from the 1E DMG's instructional text, but due to rule changes, they don't quite work the same. <br /><br />RE OD&D being a "finished" game<br /><br />As written, it cannot function or stand by itself, and large swaths of it were immediately re-written with its first supplement. It was ever-evolving. It requires Chainmail to run. I don't know what more I can say, man: you seem to simply be disbelieving the facts on that one.<br /><br />RE BECMI "deviating greatly"<br /><br />BECMI is a complete game. Mentzer is a solid designer. BECMI lacks some of the nuance of AD&D, but it also lacks interlocking systems that contribute to a particular style of play. BECMI play, run as written, WILL end up looking different from AD&D play over time. <br /><br />RE System Not Mattering (Much)<br /><br />System only ceases to matter when one deviates from the system. If you want to deviate the system to make it more in line with another system...why not just play the other system?<br /><br />RE Indoctrination in Culture<br /><br />That can't be helped, but people can find their way out (or into different cultures). And cultural indoctrination, unexamined, is a sad state of affairs.<br /><br />But you're right...that's a whole 'nother realm of discourse.<br /><br />John:<br /><br />I appreciate your comments and your position. I think you feel my thesis is overblown, mountains out of molehills, etc. and you may be right. <br /><br />I haven't read OSRIC for a looong time, and it may well be "The Good Parts" version of AD&D. Cool. We're still talking AD&D. I'm not calling it the "true" form of D&D because of its "Gygaxian flavor." I'm not interested in flavor...I can add my own flavor (and every DM WILL add their own). Textually, I am familiar with AD&D's instructions so I use that. I own those books; I know how and where to find the info I need within them. Maybe OSRIC is an easier system to learn/use...but I don't have enough experience with it to say.<br /><br />I was really trying to limit my discussion to the "name brand" versions of D&D.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-33191257358104222672021-09-30T07:16:32.465-07:002021-09-30T07:16:32.465-07:00I suppose it's that I just don't buy into ...I suppose it's that I just don't buy into auteur theory. <br /><br />Even if AD&D is "Gary's vision" (and I don't even think we can accept that notion uncritically; at the very least, we know that Tim Kask helped Gary put the core books together and had a lot of input), that doesn't automatically make it "the best D&D", nor does it even make it "unique" IMO.<br /><br />I don't accept that OD&D is unfinished, or that BECMI is all that much of a deviation from OD&D and AD&D. In fact, the only thing that AD&D has that's unique to it is Gary's interwoven commentary — which is valuable, it's really the only source of explanation for how the game is supposed to work — but I also don't accept that such marginalia is in fact part of the rules system. If one were to excise it from AD&D, (a) I think the three systems would actually look pretty similar, and (b) I pre-emptively reject any claim that without the infamous Gygaxian ramblings, AD&D ceases to be AD&D. The rules can stand on their own (cf. OSRIC). <br /><br />But the differences between those rules? Trivial. "System matters" is held up as a truism these days, but it's an unexamined one. (And it should be examined, because it was the rallying cry of the Forgists and the storygamers.) I don't think it matters nearly as much as the DM having been indoctrinated into the proper culture of play. And at that point, we're really beyond discussing texts and into another realm of discourse entirely.John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.com