tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post895845567088951446..comments2024-03-28T00:41:13.514-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Quitting While I'm BehindJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-63165622257119477382010-07-22T10:10:05.198-07:002010-07-22T10:10:05.198-07:00“...it emphasized character crafting over good pla...“...it emphasized character crafting over good play, combat over adventuring, and unwieldy mechanics over abstract models...”<br /><br />Very well put!Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-56142762034228466502010-07-22T06:40:39.734-07:002010-07-22T06:40:39.734-07:00@ JB, I've been playing since 1st. I complete...@ JB, I've been playing since 1st. I completely agree with your statement about Role Playing. 4E does not put a premium on it. In order to get the four women in our group to play though I needed to 'sell' the game as collective storytelling. So I've really made a concerted effort to have the game be about the characters not interesting combat encounters, which is something 4E does do well. Great point.CitizenBenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04438105613157165290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-15808093024424580652010-07-21T17:01:55.061-07:002010-07-21T17:01:55.061-07:00D&D is a state of mind? So what about the Prod...D&D is a state of mind? So what about the Product Identity Clause that WotC slapped on the SRD? Is that a state of mind too, like chess is a state of mind? So if I made all the pawns move like rooks it'll still be chess right, cause, you know, its a state of mind... <br /><br />Way to go trooper.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-72111673029424365572010-07-21T13:47:11.686-07:002010-07-21T13:47:11.686-07:00While I agree with your right to say that 4ed isn&...While I agree with your right to say that 4ed isn't a good game, I might disagree with your statement that it is not D&D. More specifically, I would say it is not conducive to *your* D&D, although there are plenty of other people finding *their* D&D in it. My thoughts are elaborated in this post: http://mediocretales.com/?p=872DeadGodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04176788130096529847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-51549206550386512682010-07-21T10:36:29.786-07:002010-07-21T10:36:29.786-07:00@ CitizenBen: If 4E is their 1st foray into role-p...@ CitizenBen: If 4E is their 1st foray into role-playing than your players sound like their 5th generation role-players. It sounds like you are the DM and have some experience with earlier editions...?<br /><br />If that's the case, that's a good thing as you can help them understand what role-playing is...I'm not sure 4E (by itself) could do that. <br /><br />@ Nick: I do NOT believe MMO players want MMO in their RPGs. I agree they are two different media, two different forms of entertainment.<br /><br />However, the current publishers of D&D seem to have this notion (a "perceived idea" as I wrote above, i.e. a perception, i.e. not necessarily reality) that people that play WoW and people that play D&D are the same type of people ("escapist nerds that want to blow shit up with magic or swing swords and fantasy monsters") and they are gearing their game as if to appeal to this demographic. I agree with you that they are NOT necessarily the same demographic...which is why the re-vamp is so insulting on one level and crazy on another. Personally, I think people sitting at a table want MORE from their RPG than a video game...I know I do.<br /><br />@ Jamie: I have heard plenty of arguments against playing B/X in the past, and have poked fun at it myself. D&D itself is in many ways based on a ridiculous premise, so no, it doesn't sting. As far as dismissing it out of hand, all I can do is point out its virtues and if it doesn't appeal, so be it.<br /><br />I'm not saying 4th edition isn't a fun game. I'm just saying it's not an especially good RPG (that's A) and that it's not really D&D (that's B). That doesn't mean it's not fun and not worth a play, if that's what your looking for...kind of a complex, skirmish-level war game.<br /><br />I wouldn't say I'm particularly invested in D&D as a brand...after all, I don't own stock in WotC or anything, so it's no skin off my teeth if they go belly-up, especially as they're not publishing anything I want to buy anyway. I AM interested in the continuing hobby/industry of RPGs for a variety of reasons, however, and will do what I can to steer folks towards games that promote the kind of gaming community I'd like to see.<br />: )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-15891764973272876422010-07-21T09:08:56.877-07:002010-07-21T09:08:56.877-07:00@Icarus, D&D Essentials is as necessary to exi...@Icarus, D&D Essentials is as necessary to existing players of 4e as the Mentzer box set was to folks that were already playing AD&D 2nd Edition. That is to say, not at all.<br /><br />JB, I know that you've got a lot more invested in the D&D brand and its style of play than I have. Hell, 3.5 was my first edition, so to speak, and I played it enough to know that it didn't satisfy what I wanted out of a fantasy role-playing game, so I moved on to other lighter and more story-driven games (your Wushus and Inspectres and the like). Since I've discovered the old Basic editions of D&D, I've found that they scratch an itch for a grittier, more strategic type of game, one that I've never played before. But would I use them for high-powered cinematic heroics? No, just like I wouldn't use Unknown Armies to do high-powered cinematic heroics. 4th Edition scratches my itch for that style of play.<br /><br />But still, I read games like Swords and Wizardry and Basic Fantasy and want to run them. I'm bidding on a copy of the Moldvay Basic set on eBay right now and a lot of that desire to play it has come from your blog. Shit, I just designed my first dungeon after eight years of roleplaying!<br /><br />To play the hyperbolic Devil's Advocate, I've never played or GMed B/X D&D. Based on the opinions of others, I could easily come to the conclusion that B/X is a dumbed-down version of D&D for kids and that I shouldn't waste my time with it, or that Dungeons and Dragons itself is just a hack-n-slash board game and isn't conducive to role-playing. Even though you know I'm entitled to my opinion, it would still sting, wouldn't it? For me, hearing someone offhandedly dismiss a game that you've put a lot of effort into over the years would make me want to at least run a game of it for them so that they could decide for themselves in play.Jamiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12348128429151023348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-44619817398952400812010-07-21T08:09:21.980-07:002010-07-21T08:09:21.980-07:00An hour ago I’m really interested on the 4e, but n...An hour ago I’m really interested on the 4e, but now after reading too much post and comments I’d rather try not to have the copy. Well I guess too much criticism, that’s why I value other’s opinion. Well I guess I just save it and look for discount coupon where I can get cheaper <a href="http://wowgoldpig.com" title="warcraft gold" rel="nofollow">warcraft gold</a>. thanks for a nice read! Long life!ataniumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06696334446636624017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-50618656262133618752010-07-21T07:30:53.517-07:002010-07-21T07:30:53.517-07:00As for the game no longer being conducive to role ...<i>As for the game no longer being conducive to role playing again my group would disagree, we have entire 6 hour sessions with little to no combat. </i><br /><br />You might have 4e books on the table (or laptop) but it sure doesn't sound like you're playing 4e. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-1293121950511456982010-07-21T07:23:24.329-07:002010-07-21T07:23:24.329-07:00I got mentioned in your post? Bizarre!
I still st...I got mentioned in your post? Bizarre!<br /><br />I still stand by the "System Matters" article, as people endlessly try and defend 4th edition as being just as roleplayable as any other edition, which is an absolutely silly notion.<br /><br />Also, I disagree with you on the point that MMO players want their roleplaying games to play like MMOs. It's akin to saying that people who work in a cubicle all day want to play games that center around paperwork. If you prefer, it'd be like saying carpenters want for every game to have detailed wood-working rules.<br /><br />They scratch different itches. But maybe I'm biased? Not every MMO'er cares about the history of the hobby or the OSR or is entranced by Gygaxian prose and all of that fun stuff.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08596442998967851832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-43586041981076079612010-07-21T06:31:12.168-07:002010-07-21T06:31:12.168-07:00I just want to say I enjoy your blog.
Now that I&...I just want to say I enjoy your blog.<br /><br />Now that I've buttered you up, I'd have to say my 4E group would disagree with you. To them it's D&D because this is their first, for the most part, foray into Role Playing. Three of my eight rotating players have played previous incarnations of D&D, only one going back to 1E like myself. We aren't kids, average age 30, and none of us play MMORPG's. We all have a limited window of time to play once a month and want nothing more than to play the game.<br /><br />As for the game no longer being conducive to role playing again my group would disagree, we have entire 6 hour sessions with little to no combat. <br /><br />In the end every edition is someone's 1st Edition. Is 4E great, no, not by any stretch of the imagination. Is it playable? Yes, and with the right DM & group it's a great time. Min/Max players will of course abuse the system, rule's lawyers will still be rule's lawyers regardless of edition, it all falls on the Players & the DM to make the most of the experience.<br /><br />So while I love 2nd Edition, mainly because those for me were the halcyon days of gaming for me. Nostalgia is a wonderful thing, but to my players who are experiencing the joy and wonder of exploring things like Castle Ravenloft or the Keep On The Borderlands for the very 1st time, this is THEIR D&D and I'm just enjoying the ride.<br /><br />Thanks again for the top notch read and an argument that has made me think very hard on my feelings on the so-called "Edition Wars".CitizenBenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04438105613157165290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-52200994278572606622010-07-21T05:46:31.202-07:002010-07-21T05:46:31.202-07:00JB, I've mentioned briefly in places on my blo...JB, I've mentioned briefly in places on my blog already about my hate for 2nd Edition. It was really the version that started D&D down the path of "RPG diarrhea." Supplement after supplement, campaign world after campaign world...they even cut the Monster Manuals up and made the crappy Monstrous Compendium! TSR started the flow of crap and WotC picked up the ball with 3.0-3.5 (just the fact that they had a .5 edition was an utterly blatant cash grab, IMHO). <br /><br />2nd Edition really pushed the game into being a commodity rather than a game, where you no longer could just be a bunch of gamers who only needed to spend a few bucks on the core books and maybe a module or two (but modules were truly optional, so you could pass on them). <br /><br />You mentioned Palladium, and I too played Rifts for a while. I remember getting the core rules and being in awe. Then, the flood of sourcebooks started coming out, faster and faster! It became a joke, how much crap they released as time went on. Some of it was good, but the rest was just pages and pages of stupid monsters and bad character class options. And their other game worlds suffer from varying degrees of the same diarrhea.<br /><br />I will be writing a more detailed post on my disgust hopefully soon.Anthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-11764974885537984652010-07-21T04:01:29.892-07:002010-07-21T04:01:29.892-07:00The irony is that all the people who were defendin...The irony is that all the people who were defending WotC-4E's claim to the legacy of the D&D name KNOW that they're going to get royally screwed by D&D Essentials VERY SOON while the guys who were smart enough not to invest in 4E are feeling righteously justified. The best part is that the pricks at Hasbro-WotC don't give a damn either way cause boy, that D&D brand practically sells itself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-67513073431189928002010-07-20T23:56:37.139-07:002010-07-20T23:56:37.139-07:00Coming from someone who has played every edition, ...Coming from someone who has played every edition, who owned 4e and ran a six or seven month campaign of it: your perceptions are more or less correct. I'd elaborate, but I'm tired of wasting my breath on 4e, and have since returned to games that better suit my style. <br /><br />And, to your defense, it is possible to gather information and form a fairly informed opinion about something without buying into it. Case in point: the trailers for <i>Hot Tub Time Machine</i> tell me that seeing it would not be an enjoyable experience. Hearing my WoW friends talk about WoW has totally solidified my lack of interest in it.DMWieghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03682249561077936507noreply@blogger.com