tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post8149668624904775810..comments2024-03-18T21:06:37.568-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Dammit Paladins! (Change-Up)JBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-32369074434362771272012-03-03T06:00:43.430-08:002012-03-03T06:00:43.430-08:00My knowledge of 3E is very spotty. Between 1999 an...My knowledge of 3E is very spotty. Between 1999 and the summer of 2011 I played almost almost no RPGs, so I almost entirely missed the Third Edition years. I bought the core books some time around 2006 and 2007 just out of curiosity and read them lightly, but ended up selling them because I was not really using them. Most of my 3E knowledge has come recently from comparing the online d20 SRD to other rule sets. Thus, it is unsurprising that I didn't know about Sword & Fist.<br /><br />If I was using the Blackmoor monk by the book, I could easily be persuaded to allow the turn ability. It actually fits many East Asian fantasy stories (where Buddhist monks fight demon spirits). See The Legend of the White Snake for a Chinese example:<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Snake" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_White_Snake</a><br /><br />Or the Inuyasha anime for a modern Japanese take.<br /><br />By the way, I'm really looking forward to seeing what you come up regarding an Arabian-flavored D&D. Back in the 90s, I remember really enjoying the Arabian Adventures TSR softcover, though I think we basically used it as a splatbook for the new classes, spells, and equipment lists. It might be worth checking out as you are working on your D&D.<br /><br /><a href="http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=4256" rel="nofollow">http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=4256</a>Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-75758579523899039812012-03-02T23:32:44.905-08:002012-03-02T23:32:44.905-08:00I see paladins as a subset of clerics, followers o...I see paladins as a subset of clerics, followers of Law. They are part of fighting temples, or are devout followers who have taken up the sword. I have been reinterpreting the whole crazy ass dnd world as a time of massive conflict, warlords and basically chaos with all the petty barons (I.e. despots). The Arab spring and more specifically what has been going on in Syria reminds me of the middle ages. People flock to the lords That protect them or they have some extra privlleages even if not good. The paladins are the guys trying to bring some order to the whole crazy mess. They go in the dungeons because that is where the baddies are. The are with other non pally's because they share a common goal, and there is a good chance the other adventurers aren't exactly supporting the regime.H-Town https://www.blogger.com/profile/01532013157464037691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-71513620735980419882012-03-02T21:34:04.312-08:002012-03-02T21:34:04.312-08:00It's not very original of me to put the monk i...It's not very original of me to put the monk in a "fighter" category...after all, wasn't it the 3rd Edition splat book "Sword & Fist" that first put the two together?<br /><br />The original introduction of the monk (in Supplement II, Blackmoor) put the class firmly as a subclass of cleric: only clerics with the proper ability scores (WIS & DEX of 15, STR of 12) could be monks, gaining special abilities (like unarmed fighting, spell-like abilities, etc.) in exchange with some limitations (no armor, no spells). <br /><br />Interestingly, nothing in the class description indicates the monk doesn't have the same ability to turn undead as a normal cleric.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-19543688200568196352012-03-02T21:20:04.761-08:002012-03-02T21:20:04.761-08:00Mmm...that makes sense, but I still see the class ...Mmm...that makes sense, but I still see the class requirements as more restrictive than just "fighting to preserve order/civilization." They just get too many bennies to go easy on 'em.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-69079140321904617062012-03-02T21:18:17.294-08:002012-03-02T21:18:17.294-08:00@ IG/Heron: These are ALSO excellent comments...bu...@ IG/Heron: These are ALSO excellent comments...but I didn't read them until AFTER my second post. <br /><br />I think there's a lot of validity to this approach of the cleric class (i.e. intended for solo play, build your own army). On the other hand, I seem to recall paladins having restrictions on when they could acquire henchmen or hirelings (and I KNOW they're restricted in what types of hireling they can retain...pious, sycophantic do-gooders!).JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-34543958715547215012012-03-02T21:15:37.320-08:002012-03-02T21:15:37.320-08:00Excellent comments...my thoughts were incorporated...Excellent comments...my thoughts were incorporated in my latest post.<br />: )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-14841363154986410352012-03-02T21:15:00.647-08:002012-03-02T21:15:00.647-08:00@ Drance:
I really appreciate your positive attitu...@ Drance:<br />I really appreciate your positive attitude and high praise. But don't be TOO jealous...it's not all wine and roses, man.<br />: )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-41647199625520395712012-03-02T21:13:13.037-08:002012-03-02T21:13:13.037-08:00Yeah, it really depends on your class setting. I s...Yeah, it really depends on your class setting. I see a "cleric/magic-user" as the epitome of the Witch...but druids and witches share a lot of historic similarities (as pagan religious figures with a knowledge of magic and a tendency to be persecuted).<br /><br />Unfortunately, for MY campaign setting (more Arabic in flavor), neither the witch nor the druid are very appropriate. And ALL characters have a tendency to recite poetry and verse, but little propensity for singing (i.e. no bards).<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-90610409278050019042012-03-02T21:10:17.420-08:002012-03-02T21:10:17.420-08:00Yeah...I'm beginning to look at it a bit like ...Yeah...I'm beginning to look at it a bit like this too. Here's my latest take:<br /><br />Cleric with fighter "skills" = Paladin<br />Fighter with thief "skills" = Assassin<br />Thief with magic-user "skills" = Illusionist<br />Magic-user with cleric "skills" = Monk<br /><br />...which works for ALL the subclasses except the monk. My answer to that problem is (ta-da!) to completely reinvent the monk as something other than a Kung Fu master...instead, he'll be closer to a fakir or dervish.<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-38727637172066527712012-03-02T21:02:04.269-08:002012-03-02T21:02:04.269-08:00I agree with valiance, I'm still in the camp t...I agree with valiance, I'm still in the camp that believes that a paladin is basically a cleric with a sword. And the motivation of different characters for cooperating need not be the same. The thief goes down into the mythic underworld for the fabled treasure, the magic-user for the buried secrets, the fighter for glory (and gold!), and the cleric for vanquishing demons and ridding the world of otherworldly horrors (at least, that is a serviceable set of reasons). I think the paladin can easily use the cleric justification.<br /><br />The problem comes when PLAYERS decide to use the paladin's code as an excuse to stop cooperating with other players, in my experience.<br /><br /><i>with the possible exception of Buddhism (which interestingly doesn’t possess clergy in the usual sense)</i><br /><br />This is a misunderstanding. Buddhism certainly does have clergy. Or, I should say that many strains of Buddhism have clergy. And warrior priests too. Check out the history of Mt. Hiei and Enryaku-ji in Japan. What did Hideyoshi do when he unified Japan? He put the temple to the torch because it possessed too much military power.<br /><br />I like the fact that you make the monk a subclass of fighter, assuming you are going for the martial arts archetype. It fits much better than the cleric/priest category (NOD did a fighter type monk in issue #1, I think).Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-49827228194236428852012-03-02T11:38:21.782-08:002012-03-02T11:38:21.782-08:00Firstly, I generally agree that a paladin is just ...Firstly, I generally agree that a paladin is just a subclass of a cleric (that uses swords). I always thought clerics should have differing weapons/equipment/spells etc. based on their object of worship. The paladin is just a special case of cleric (an especially martial priest--trading some of the cleric's spell facility for greater martial ability).<br /><br />Paladins make sense in a campaign world where LAW and CHAOS are opposing cosmic forces. If the megadungeon or the mythic underworld are manifestations of chaos, then combating the creatures of chaos by descending into the dungeon is, ipso facto, advancing the cause of law and civilization--which is the paladin's raison d'etre. <br /><br />The paladin likely sees his more mercenary comrades as serving the cause of LAW despite their imperfections and impiety. In the fight against CHAOS, every strong arm and sharp blade is needed--there are few with the guts or mettle to combat the creatures of CHAOS-- and Paladins cannot let the perfect become the enemy of the good, lest the whole world be unmade. <br /><br />As long as the paladin is spending his gold to "carouse" for pious purposes, and returns magical items to the Church rather than selling them for personal gain, and has a suitable moral code, I think it's workable.valiance.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02072370158412284072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-35948370073345628832012-03-02T09:16:39.104-08:002012-03-02T09:16:39.104-08:00we always had similar problems integrating Paladin...we always had similar problems integrating Paladins into the standard murder-hobo party. I think where a Paladin would really work is in a one-on-one campaign (what we used to call "solo adventures", although there were actually two of us). To my mind, that 17 CHA is for inspiring FOLLOWERS and winning over potential allies. The Paladin wouldn't join a party, he'd have his OWN, made up of people inspired enough to follow his lead. Hard to reconcile with the typical gaming group dynamics.The Iron Goathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15839364742884404019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-75898680936153818012012-03-02T08:57:47.316-08:002012-03-02T08:57:47.316-08:00We had a cavalier-based Paladin in my last AD&...We had a cavalier-based Paladin in my last AD&D game, back in high school. We didn't really need a lot of justification for the paladin to go into dungeons. We gave him Roger E. Moore's article in Best of Dragon III and he re-read Three Hearts and Three Lions and went to town as the best damn holy warrior I've ever seen played. He was LG to a degree above reproach, but neither stupid or arrogant or obnoxious as so many people seem to interpret that. He held to his code and held himself to exacting standards to present an example to those around him.<br /><br />But the point is that a paladin - he's a holy crusader, chosen by his god to smite true evil. Yes, there might be bandits up on the surface, and you could feed people at the soup kitchen and patrol the village with your warhorse. But any commoner can do the soup kitchen bit and any common soldier can do the patrols. They can't go down into the very lair of evil and destroy it. They can't recover the lost and stolen wealth of the upper lands. The paladin can - and the stat limitations should make it clear there aren't a lot of them. They can risk their life but they should do it where others cannot, not by fixing the first social woe they come along. They need to use that immunity to fear, that immunity to disease, those special anti-evil powers and their fighting ability and go find evil where it lurks and smash it back down to hell. And if you as the GM put evil in a big hole in the ground, that's where they will go find it. Or if you put a holy avenger down in that big hole, held by some powerful monster who keeps it from being used to smite evil, that's where paladins will be sent.<br /><br />So yeah, we never had issue one with paladins in dungeons. We did have issues with paladins in a party of guys who felt Conan was too lawful, but that's an issue with LG fighters and CN thieves, too.Peter Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14246000382321978462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-17831141601244277032012-03-02T06:25:58.526-08:002012-03-02T06:25:58.526-08:00*sniff* Ah, the smell of creativity! Once more I a...*sniff* Ah, the smell of creativity! Once more I admire the output and deep thoughts on game theory, and am jealous! This is really exciting to watch someone develop their own spin on D&D from the ground up! Can't wait for more!Anthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-72448904195350677662012-03-02T04:38:16.841-08:002012-03-02T04:38:16.841-08:00Following bholmes, in my homebrew classes, the &qu...Following bholmes, in my homebrew classes, the "cleric/thief" is the Bard class. "Cleric/magic-user" is the Druid. It works well enough, but lately I've been feeling that I really don't need all the sub-classes and should ditch them.<br /><br />At the same time, I'm considering switching to LL and the AEC as my go-to rule-set. What to do, simplify, or go all out? Only time will tell!<br /><br />And I can't wait to read about your experience playing a paladin. I just played one for the first time myself in Pathfinder, and it was a fun experience, but it would have been hard to justify simple dungeon delves in search of loot. Dungeon delves in search of specific treasures (like holy relics or what not) would have made sense, though.Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-11507482251626510522012-03-02T02:25:38.513-08:002012-03-02T02:25:38.513-08:00The way I see it, the subclasses are a convenient ...The way I see it, the subclasses are a convenient way to get rid of the whole multi-class idea but appease those players who may desire a certain mixed play style.<br /><br />I usually see them something like this:<br />Fighter/thief = Assassin<br />Fighter/magic-user = Monk<br />Fighter/cleric = Paladin<br />Thief/magic-user = Illusionist<br /><br />I don't see the need to have a cleric/thief or cleric/magic-user covered so they don't need a subclass. I'm also not sure the Monk works as a Fighter/Magic-user but it could be made to.bholmeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553614846487341510noreply@blogger.com