tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post7856230641166087493..comments2024-03-29T03:53:01.413-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Race as ClassJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-73846336889750925062020-01-09T10:02:56.072-08:002020-01-09T10:02:56.072-08:00"New half-elf class?" I own GAZ5 and I&#..."New half-elf class?" I own GAZ5 and I'm not familiar with that one. I know there are rules for how humans and elves may interbreed (with female offspring being born "human" and male offspring being either "elf" or stillborn). I don't remember an actual half-elf class.<br /><br />More's the pity because when I ran a BECMI campaign (back in the early 2000s) I really wanted to 'port some old AD&D characters as NPCs but couldn't due to the LACK of half-elves.<br /><br />I think it would be fairly easy to create a gnome class...in fact, I included one in my book The Complete B/X Adventurer! It does have it's own unique spell list, however, and is a bit more "foresty" oriented than a straight illusionist. Goblinoid Game's Advanced Edition Companion also provides info that could be used to adapt "traditional" gnomes and illusionists to a OSE game.<br /><br />Thanks for reading, Persimmon. It's never too late to weigh in with an opinion!<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-34414963701890869312020-01-06T19:30:49.074-08:002020-01-06T19:30:49.074-08:00Very late to the party here, but I just picked up ...Very late to the party here, but I just picked up Old School Essentials and love how the B/Xified the AD&D classes and added new racial classes like gnomes, duergar, and drow. I've decided to use these in my upcoming campaign instead of the standard AD&D classes. We're also using the BECMI/Gazetteer options so elves and the new half-elf class (from GAZ 5) will have <br />different spell lists and the like for customization. I may create my own for gnomes, who get illusionist spells RAW. But I'm digging the idea of difference with race classes.Persimmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02966572602767972805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-28195084293127613042013-09-25T10:53:04.097-07:002013-09-25T10:53:04.097-07:00I love this article--well said. With D&D Next...I love this article--well said. With D&D Next playtesting going around furiously, I keep looking at my Rules Cyclopedia sitting on the shelf and thinking about playing some old-school BECMI.<br /><br />The Gazeteer series actually did include some other class options for demihumans (including a Dwarf Cleric) who could only heal other dwarfs!<br /><br />I get annoyed in 1E-4E with the party, because having a human in the party is RARE. I have a guy who made a human rogue in my current campaign "because I don't want to be the same class as anyone else". Go figure!<br /><br />Oh yeah, regarding dark elves, I had a player ask me about playing a drow.<br /><br />ALL DARK ELVES ARE EVIL.<br /><br />Period.<br /><br />While I LOVED reading the books Drizz't was in, I still hated that now every drow in every game is a "hooker with a heart of gold" (Pretty Woman analogy). Salvatore killed Chewbacca! I think that proves that Drizz't is a fraud.Eugeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17582008315511504774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-3723257843937209282012-03-26T08:24:43.937-07:002012-03-26T08:24:43.937-07:00I'm sold on race as class because I find the A...I'm sold on race as class because I find the AD&D method of race + class to be far too limiting. A dwarven cleric shouldn't be the same as a human cleric. A hobbit thief shouldn't have the exact same skills as a human thief. This requirement to balance all the racial bonuses and class features traps AD&D (and it's successors) in a lame world of minor benefits and half measures (half-orc, half-elf, half-orgre, etc). <br /><br />With B/X or LL, I can easily add an orc class, a minotaur, a centaur, a pixie or anything else. I, as DM, have complete control of every aspect of character design for a new class: hit dice, XP chart, hit tables, etc. And, each new class is a self contained unit which I can add or delete at will without affecting anything else in the game world. There won't suddenly be hobbit paladins roaming around out of nowhere.Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-76803089607720103992010-05-24T19:34:07.962-07:002010-05-24T19:34:07.962-07:00@ Everyone: Sorry, I haven't responded to your...@ Everyone: Sorry, I haven't responded to your comments for so long. I want you all to know that I truly appreciate both your reading and your feedback. There just wasn't much more for me to say in response, except "thanks." Well...maybe, "keep on truckin'."<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-32383876192002142482010-05-10T07:45:48.327-07:002010-05-10T07:45:48.327-07:00This is a fantastic analysis. Of course I have a...This is a fantastic analysis. Of course I have a few specific comments.<br /><br />1- I especially was impressed by your analysis of Tolkien. Indeed, in that setting they are all fighters. The 'burglar' deal with Bilbo, was because he was sneaky, not because of nay thief skills. (Please note that the thief skills in D&D are most closely copied from the Gray Mouser, down to his ability to cast spells from scrolls but with a chance of mis-casting. There are no characters at all like that in LOTR)<br /><br />2-I fully agree with how in-human the races are (and should be). I remember the old days, there was always some prematurely PC guy saying: "Why do ALL orcs have to be evil???" The rest of us would roll our eyes... <br />And then, TSR itself espoused this, with a certain Drow Ranger.... that is one of the HUGE factors that skewed most people away from the above assumptions: good drow, non-wizard, high ranger level...Here truly is a human with a dark-elf mask... His friends are human, his foes are human, his GF is human!! Let all my drow be EVIL ftr-magi-users, please!<br /><br />Anyways, thank you for this thoughtful post. It has made my D&D regression that much more enjoyable :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15757442191895029408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-63731149847017600082010-05-06T17:08:52.903-07:002010-05-06T17:08:52.903-07:00If you want to talk about definitions of words lik...If you want to talk about definitions of words like "race", you have to think about other definitions, too. A species, wikipedia tells us,<br /><br />"a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring of both genders, and separated from other such groups with which interbreeding does not normally happen."<br /><br />By this definition, humans, elves, dwarves, etc are multiple species in B/X, but one species in AD&D, though there are some inconsistencies, such as human/orc fertile pairings possible, and human/elf, but not elf/orc. <br /><br />So by looking at what "species" means, we also find a problem of differences between editions of D&D, which add to the confusion.Hanley Tuckshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13047638048463160737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-11827528240837177792010-05-06T15:39:43.485-07:002010-05-06T15:39:43.485-07:00Wrote on the same topic myself. I like Race as Cla...Wrote on the same topic myself. I like Race as Class a lot, with the caveat that there ought to be several race as classes for each race.<br /><br />If all say Elves are innate magic users, then have a thief/mage, an arcane/archer and a standard fighter/mage -- whatever fits what your Elf stereotypes are.<br /><br />sane with Dwarfs and Halflings and whatnot<br /><br />This is kind of a best of both worlds solution in that everyone now has race classes. <br /><br />Its also compatible (using various class design systems) with AD&D 2e (my favorite version) and deals away with cruddy multi-classing too.5stonegameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10694550968360550229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-88889845098636414292010-05-06T13:44:22.148-07:002010-05-06T13:44:22.148-07:00An excellent post JB... May is looking good at B/X...An excellent post JB... May is looking good at B/X Blackrazor.<br /><br />I've never had a player complain about RaC... it's always other DMs. My players at least know what rulebook they are picking up. They also don't complain about the differing movement of the pieces when they play chess, or mumble about how it's unfair to the d12 that it can't roll a natural 20.rainswepthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06165059567790555748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-364594388073766182010-05-06T13:10:18.484-07:002010-05-06T13:10:18.484-07:00Another great post, JB. Very well thought out and...Another great post, JB. Very well thought out and insightful. This is why I'm a follower of your blog.<br />@Alan: I believe that there is, indeed, an implied setting inherent in the rules. It is the Tolkien-inspired vanilla fantasy that many people enjoy and expect in their games. As The_Myth points out, we an easily house-rule some fairly basic changes to shake things up and chuck those implications right out the window. Some DM's do alot of chucking and have very unique campaigns while others make minor changes to suit the imaginings of themselves and their players. <br /><br />That's the beauty of LBB or B/X D&D. You can do that house-ruling without worrying _too_ much about game balance or breaking something.Reese Laundryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02225208626688676372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-52105253970058606762010-05-06T13:08:19.405-07:002010-05-06T13:08:19.405-07:00Recently been going back and forth on this same is...Recently been going back and forth on this same issue. The main benefit to having race as class is in balancing humans and demi-humans, as the balance is baked into the class itself, instead of the race (which are typically bolt on mechanics). Also, the classes themselves do not need to be as tightly balanced, as they each excel in different ways and situations (if we are talking about old school style of play, and not the combat driven games of today). Races however do need to be balanced, otherwise players would all gravitate towards a particular race, whether power gamers or not.<br /><br />And balancing races in a simple system such as B/X is rough. There are not many mechanical systems to affect, and besides an XP bonus, I have yet to find a satisfying bonus to give to humans, which means the other races must have disadvantages to counter their advantages. You can fallback on movement and weapon limitations for the smaller races such as Dwarves and Halflings, but I have been hard pressed to find a reasonable disadvantage for Elves (the best I have been able to think of is slower healing due to the different metabolism a long lived race such as Elves would have).<br /><br />I am also against disadvantages which limit class choice either directly or indirectly (the Strength penalty given to Halflings under some systems effectively eliminates them as being effective front line fighters). If I am going to work hard to give a choice to players, I want it to be an actual choice, not a simple illusion. Otherwise I am better off just having an extra class called "Dwarven Cleric" instead of limiting Dwarves to just Fighters and Clerics.<br /><br />Just when I convince myself that race = class is good, I begin to waver because so many players are against it such as you mention in your post. It has been very difficult to convince any of my players to give an old school game a try when they are much more keen on 4ed and Pathfinder, I fear they may balk when they see the Race = Class.<br /><br />But...your post here opens me up to a different method of presentation, by embracing races as being more alien than human, thank you, it has given me good food for thought.<br /><br />@The Myth: I would love to see those house rules of yours for Races if you could post a link!Stacktracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05778633676064958982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-80605192643294266812010-05-06T12:56:40.404-07:002010-05-06T12:56:40.404-07:00The reason a dwarf would be a cleric I'd becau...The reason a dwarf would be a cleric I'd because I want that in my setting. Using race as class forces details into my story. Therefore, I wouldn't be able to use that system. I can always exclude a race or class from a setting so a race/class system is more open.Senecahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17716712737269817732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-70209990704484439262010-05-06T11:27:46.307-07:002010-05-06T11:27:46.307-07:00The Myth: Yup - and then leave the knocked out vic...The Myth: Yup - and then leave the knocked out victim in a tub full of ice with a note stuck to their forehead informing them to get to a healing temple immediately... ;>Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999861302655014098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-55214562674121958032010-05-06T11:22:26.551-07:002010-05-06T11:22:26.551-07:00Alan said:
"What if my halflings are sneaky,...Alan said:<br /><br />"What if my halflings are sneaky, thieving city dwellers that will sooner stab you in the back then cook a pie?"<br /><br />Oooooo...does that mean they pluck out a kidney for a stake-a-kidney pie?The_Mythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10621186404597424842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-72487415948845525572010-05-06T11:20:17.059-07:002010-05-06T11:20:17.059-07:00I have similarly come around to the idea od race-a...I have similarly come around to the idea od race-as-class. But my biggest gripe remains that the B/X demi-humans still resemble heir human counterparts too much.<br /><br />Dwarves and Halflings are still basically just Fighters with an XP penalty (of about 10% per level), a level-limit, and a few cool abilities; likewise, Elves are just Fighter/Magic-users with a few extra abilities and a level limit.<br /><br />I recently created some house rules to give them their won, special abilities, similar too yet distinct from the Human classes.<br /><br />One simple way I think this can be house-rules in B/X with Elves would be to give them their own, slightly water-down spell list (but buffed with more illusion and nature spells), and allow them to ditch spellbooks altogether.<br /><br />Simple changes like that really do make an Elf something different than just being a pointy-eared Magic-User in armor.The_Mythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10621186404597424842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-68632944015404776622010-05-06T11:19:52.913-07:002010-05-06T11:19:52.913-07:00The amusing thing about the race as class thing is...The amusing thing about the race as class thing is that it's the same way that OD&D originally did things as well. The good thing about it is that it encourages more people to run human pc's.Hakdovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00162408897716036685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-89800374242878157252010-05-06T11:18:24.179-07:002010-05-06T11:18:24.179-07:00I think that there will always be the inherent con...I think that there will always be the inherent conflict between what to include in rules and what to include in setting for fantasy RPGs.<br /><br />What if my elves don't *do* magic? What if my halflings are sneaky, thieving city dwellers that will sooner stab you in the back then cook a pie?<br /><br />Once the rules start defining/restricting things, they also then begin to define a setting. I really don't see a way to get around this, but it is something I have thought about, off and on.<br /><br />I guess the safest thing to do is admit to the implied setting up front, and leave it at that?Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00999861302655014098noreply@blogger.com