tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post5242360106426915553..comments2024-03-29T03:53:01.413-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Orcs: Neither Noble, Nor SavageJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-57754034508681265802022-02-10T11:56:01.183-08:002022-02-10T11:56:01.183-08:00Same here and will do.Same here and will do.The Rambling Clerichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09866256742022384323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-29927532302373202672022-02-09T21:45:38.091-08:002022-02-09T21:45:38.091-08:00Come around and read my blog sometime, Rambling Cl...Come around and read my blog sometime, Rambling Cleric. I've enjoyed this.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-89274302371401183312022-02-09T20:16:30.300-08:002022-02-09T20:16:30.300-08:00Hello again. A fair response, and even though we h...Hello again. A fair response, and even though we have areas of disagreement on this topic it seems to me that we both now at least understand what the other is talking about despite those disagreements. I only have a few remarks. I don’t disagree with your observation that my in-the-moment reflections on JB’s post were influenced by my work and shift at the hospital yesterday evening. Absolutely, and I am aware of that. It’s part of the reason I responded to his post, because what I read could be easily connected/interpreted in terms of what was already swirling around in my head. So yea, part of my understanding is certainly about me drawing upon my lived experiences to understand aspects of this game that I engage in. I believe we all do this to one extent or another. But I was certainly primed. (I am not, however, making this specifically about Diego, he just happened to be the player that had the character death in the post. My reflections are about pondering the reactions of any player to their character’s death.)<br /><br />Anyway, admitting that also does not necessarily invalidate the observation…but I’m not responding to argue that. That is, I’m not trying to shove such spontaneous and tentative reflections on the topic down anyone’s throat. It was offered up as alternative consideration that also happens to be very interesting to me because the reasons you’ve already partially observed. You’ve now added another alternative explanation of your own with your comments on frustration and human biology. Ok, I can see your point, and while I can see that being true in some contexts, I’m not currently convinced that would help understand player’s reactions to character death in all such situations. I’ll have to consider the topic more, however.<br /><br />Lastly, I want to also share that part of value I see in considering a player’s reaction is not simply so DMs can understand such reactions to formulate some appropriate response. I think how a DM understands such reactions (whether connected with intrapsychic loss, primal frustration, or something else) informs how a DM will understand other aspects of the game. For example, JB’s view on the matter informs how he understands and values (or devalues) the idea of pre-play character backstory. I find this interesting and explanatory.<br /><br />Peace & GoodnightThe Rambling Clerichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09866256742022384323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-45227557539326712892022-02-09T17:31:57.050-08:002022-02-09T17:31:57.050-08:00That's completely fair also. When teaching a ...That's completely fair also. When teaching a young person to play chess, say, the instructor has to be conscious of the difficulty and dashed feelings of the student ... as any complex game can easily overwhelm a young, inexperienced player. Unless the DM, or the father in JB’s case, is some kind of monster, it’s correct to address emotional reactions for what they are.<br /><br />I disagree that these reactions are “intrapsychic loss” or any other self-AWARENESS of “what may have been” or “campaign investment.” These explanations may be bandied about in the comforts of our psychological parlours, but they have very little to do with the concrete business of teaching children how to play hard games. What we have here is “frustration” ... a purely reflex response by an animal deprived of success, trained into the human biology by 2 million years of equating success with “Yay, we get to eat tonight.”<br /><br />You may conflate the issue as you wish. You stated earlier that you were “thinking on the fly here after a long shift dealing with people’s loss.” So, in fact, you had the hammer in your hand, and seeing what JB wrote, you decided it was a nail.<br /><br />When you’ve got a hammer, EVERYTHING looks like a nail. How much is this diagnosis about you, and how much of it is about Diego?<br />Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-32298529222380181342022-02-09T16:45:12.404-08:002022-02-09T16:45:12.404-08:00Alexis, you make some important points. However, I...Alexis, you make some important points. However, I want to address other aspects of your reply that I feel are problematic. Your reply implies things I never said or even suggested. This response is to offer some clarification and corrections.<br /><br />First, absolutely no where did I suggest any “grief counseling” or indicate the issue being considered was about counselling with a player. I never provided advice on how JB might counsel his son in dealing with grief. I did align myself with JB regarding how he handles character death. As indicated in my comment, my way of handling the death of a character was exactly like JB’s. That is, roll up another character and get back in the game. For that matter, my response to the situation seems to align with your response. Lastly, I invite you to re-read your last paragraph and consider who, between the two of us, actually provided advice-like-counseling on how to deal with grief.<br /><br />Again, my posted comment was about suggesting an alternative way to understand a player’s reaction to character’s death. This is a different topic than what you are stressing. But let me pause to say something first. I absolutely agree with you regarding your comments about risk. Yes, Diego took a risk. And yes, there are consequences when taking such a risk does not pay off. And yes, I believe, like you and JB, that the consequences should be enforced (also indicated in my original comment). Yes, players (ideally) should adapt and learn if they desire to become better players. My post does not mention this because I was not commenting on this, let alone disagreeing with this position.<br /><br />However, while I agree with your comments about risk, I do disagree with how you have framed the conversation as an either-or situation when it can certainly be a both-and conversation. Yes, Diego took a risk. However, that in no way changes the fact (as provided by JB) that Diego reacted to the consequences of that risk in a certain way. THAT, was what I was commenting on. I was suggesting an alternative way to understand that reaction beyond limiting the explanation to a player backstory. JB’s blog included his understanding of Diego’s reaction (see his original comments about it possibly being connected with too much character investment in the form of character backstory). I suggested another way to understand the reaction, and I suggested it in a non-definitive way. <br /><br />For all your comments about risk, even though accurate, you seem to be missing this point, or purposely ignoring it. Diego’s risk does not explain his emotional reaction, and emotional it was if we are to believe JB. For example, JB wrote that “he was fairly shaken by the death…to the verge that he claimed he hated the game and wanted to quit.” Later, in JB’s reply to me, he adds that Diego was “upset.” What I am trying to suggest is that despite taking a risk, and despite enforcing consequences, how might we understand what upset the player because such a reaction is very much connected with the relational dynamics of game. I suggested the concept of intrapsychic loss as one possibility for understanding the reaction. I suggested this because I disagreed with JB in what seemed to be an overly reductionistic explanation pertaining to character backstory. I am not suggesting it is the only way to understand the matter, or even the correct way; it’s merely an alternative way.<br /><br />Now, you may not be interested in considering this line of thought. Or, you might not care about the player’s reaction in this situation. That’s fine. You may even want to suggest we focus on something else like player risk. That’s fine, too. But to suggest that I am completely off base when you’re clearly not talking about the same thing as I am is something else altogether.The Rambling Clerichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09866256742022384323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-60432050195018411792022-02-09T15:17:35.494-08:002022-02-09T15:17:35.494-08:00Starting is always (in my experience) a bit slow. ...Starting is always (in my experience) a bit slow. In general I find that once a party gets a few levels under their belt, it’s easier to sustain success (new 1st levels advance quickly when working with experienced veterans, and the old guard often has the resources to bring back the dead and diminished).<br /><br />But starting out can be tough when everyone is level 1. Makes TPKs at high level truly devastating!JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-60284796448945752082022-02-09T14:34:55.059-08:002022-02-09T14:34:55.059-08:00I should maybe mention I usually have pcs go to se...I should maybe mention I usually have pcs go to second level after game one in 1st ed, unless its an especially easy session or half the session is character creation. I certainly don’t do that in 5th. Due to the breaks you mention.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-405106243353456732022-02-09T10:24:08.694-08:002022-02-09T10:24:08.694-08:00I agree. And as a father who has been ruthless whe...I agree. And as a father who has been ruthless when it comes to playing my son in chess, I can honestly say I was pleased and proud when he checkmated me with a surprising set of moves that I never saw coming.<br /><br />Diego's next character...an elven thief...did NOT attempt to burgle the rooms, just by the way...<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-31314927118212925392022-02-09T09:51:04.576-08:002022-02-09T09:51:04.576-08:00Then this has next to nothing to do with "gri...Then this has next to nothing to do with "grief" counselling over the loss of a loved one, or game investment vs. character investment. Diego took a risk in a GAME and, failing to hit a payoff, got the negative consequence of that risk.<br /><br />I'm sure Diego is perfectly aware of this, being your son and carrying your ethics and traits, JB, but I feel someone needs to say it. He took an action. He got dinged for it. Hopefully, he'll think twice about doing something so foolish again, as a 1st level character in a world with 4th level characters in it. He'll LEARN. He'll be a better player. And he'll move steadily towards working as a PARTY in the game, and not as a freelance individual.<br /><br />THIS is why there should be no fudging and changing encounters and take-backs. Just as eventually children learn that moving their bishop wrongly can make them lose, they learn how to move their bishop otherwise.<br /><br />It's inappropriate to make any connection with "loss" ... since with grief over losing a real person, the self-blame we experience is the thing that must be gotten over; whereas with a game, the self-blame we experience through making an error is the thing that must be EMBRACED. It's how we improve.<br /><br />Totally a different dynamic here.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-11858086699972792812022-02-09T09:00:21.424-08:002022-02-09T09:00:21.424-08:00I've never run 5E, but having read the rule se...I've never run 5E, but having read the rule set I'd probably err on the side of NOT giving players a break (there's enough breaks already built in).JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-75452813058361733812022-02-09T08:58:37.107-08:002022-02-09T08:58:37.107-08:00Diego decided he wanted to "investigate"...Diego decided he wanted to "investigate" the upstairs rooms. He had been shown to his by a rather hassled innkeeper's son, and then left to his own devices as their was a large gathering of individuals in the downstairs. <br /><br />For each room he approached, he listed to the door and then picked the lock. On the second door (Fernock's) I had already determined (via die roll) that the thief was present. His listening roll was a success: he could hear someone in the room. He then decided to bluff his way in by disguising his voice and pretending to be the innkeeper bringing the guy food.<br /><br />The disguise roll (made by Diego) failed. He realized he had done a poor job of impersonating the innkeep. The 4th level thief inside thought, "what the hell is this?" But he's a 4th level thief with a ring of invisibility, so he slipped it on and said, "Sure bring the food in and set it on the table."<br /><br />Bork was surprised at the invitation; however, he drew his sword and proceeded to enter.<br /><br />An unfamiliar orc with drawn blade and no food enters the thief's room. It seemed reasonable to me that a 4th level thief would take the opportunity to backstab such an intruder and then call for assistance. Which he did.<br /><br />However, his damage roll was enough to fell the PC with one blow. He still screamed bloody murder, but by the time the guest arrived the PC was mostly bled white (or pale grey) on the floor.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-69457364993111702342022-02-08T22:28:03.737-08:002022-02-08T22:28:03.737-08:00With first edition, I ended up sometime in the 90s...With first edition, I ended up sometime in the 90s taking a general position that if a character dies in the first game at first level we say he is just incapacitated. unless it’s suicide or something completely stupid. I don’t usually make the first game particularly dangerous, but if it happens I like a new character to at least make it to second level. I’ve gone back on this here and there in some campaigns with all seasoned players and friends, but I really like to give a new player a break in the first game. By second level it’s game on and you’re better play careful and smart. <br /><br />I’m kind of torn on this with fifth edition. For whatever reason that seems less necessary.Kevin Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14122665488285424578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-48391298326529721582022-02-08T20:05:50.838-08:002022-02-08T20:05:50.838-08:00"He was stabbed in the back by an invisible F..."He was stabbed in the back by an invisible Fernok of Ferd (4th level thief) while attempting to burgle rooms on the upper floor of the Inn of the Welcome Wench."<br /><br />Before I make ANY comment on this, I'd like to ask how much the stabbing by Fernok was influenced by the CHOICE Diego made to burgle rooms.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-41178341062319122462022-02-08T18:19:50.209-08:002022-02-08T18:19:50.209-08:00lol. Classic. Good rolls...yea, that's probabl...lol. Classic. Good rolls...yea, that's probably still intrapsychic loss. He's lost out on (at least temporarily) what it would have been like to play a badass half-orc that had awesome ability scores.The Rambling Clerichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09866256742022384323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-22013882897308010572022-02-08T18:01:44.199-08:002022-02-08T18:01:44.199-08:00Actually, in talking to Diego today, he says he wa...Actually, in talking to Diego today, he says he was just upset because Bork's (rolled) ability scores were so good, including an 18/93 strength and an 18 constitution.<br />; )<br /><br />However, I appreciate the analysis and I think there IS something to it. I DO want players to be invested and, as I wrote, I think it's both an INEVITABLE and DESIRABLE part of long term play.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-27057050884977438102022-02-08T17:40:36.967-08:002022-02-08T17:40:36.967-08:00Hey there. I was sitting here reading your post af...Hey there. I was sitting here reading your post after a shift at the hospital, and some of your statements grabbed my attention and got me thinking. Specifically, I was thinking about the incident with Diego and the death of his recently created character. More specifically, I was considering alternative ways his character’s death might connect to your statement, “We want players to be invested in the game, not their characters...” While I personally believe positing a strict dichotomy between game investment and character investment may result in ignoring some important connections between the two, I’m not commenting here to argue that point or dissuade you of it. Instead, I was thinking of character death, and reactions to character death, as an experience of loss, specifically intrapsychic loss (the loss of dreams, future possibilities, what may have been, etc.). Anyone who has worked with people who have experienced loss, whether the loss of a love one, the loss of a relationship, the loss of physical functionality, etc., probably has learned that such loss is often characterized by grieving the loss of “what may have been.” Diego’s character’s death and reaction to his character’s death might be understood as a kind of intrapsychic loss in that he has now lost all previously imagined possibilities, dreams, and aspirations he had for that specific Orc character in the game and in your campaign setting/world. As a result, he grieves and expresses that grief in a specific way. Now, another thing about loss is that we know that the stronger the emotional attachment, the stronger the feelings associated with the loss. Your post suggests that you recognize a level of attachment, but you attribute this to putting too much investment in the character itself by way of things like pre-play backstory. Ok, I think there certainly is truth in that. You go on to stress that, instead, one should invest in the game. However, I want to suggest (and I am thinking on the fly here after a long shift dealing with people’s loss) that the very game investment you stress and expect from players will ALSO bring about intrapsychic loss after a character death, even characters made with absolutely no backstory, because there has, indeed, been an investment made in the game. For instance, there has been a loss of “what may have been” in terms of the lost possibilities for playing that particular Orc in your particular campaign setting. Finally (I know this is getting long), just so you know that I am not reducing game investment to mean only campaign investment, I want to suggest Diego has also has experienced intrapsychic loss because he has invested in the actual game itself, especially a game with you. He may have looked forward to engaging in certain aspects of the game itself…in a new and specific way…with that specific character…with you. All those dynamics are part of the game one has invested. I’ll have to consider this some more myself after I get some rest. Like you, I’m all about not fudging death. I also tell players to roll up that next character. I’m merely suggesting that game investment may also be connected with the loss experienced after a character death because that investment also creates certain kinds of attachment that can be linked to a player’s character. Anyway, I really appreciate your post, so thanks for sharing! My apologies for the lengthy comment. Peace.The Rambling Clerichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09866256742022384323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-56397639615509735482022-02-08T10:02:37.215-08:002022-02-08T10:02:37.215-08:00Concerning Orc armor, I like to interpret the &quo...Concerning Orc armor, I like to interpret the "pig faced orc" as hillbilly humans fighting orcs wearing pig faced bascinets, and not realizing it's a helmet. This implies Orc have sophisticated metallurgy and industry required to make high quality armor. In my world this results in Orc Steel being highly prized, like Damascus steel, and the orcs have the equivalent of 14th/15th century tech, while humans have 10th/11th.Lance Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817319325489613672noreply@blogger.com