tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post5157897049336680845..comments2024-03-28T00:41:13.514-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Radically Faster Combat: Auto-HitsJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-22347989173320312852021-04-01T12:45:42.818-07:002021-04-01T12:45:42.818-07:00@ Jack:
Have you read Into the Odd? Apparently it...@ Jack:<br /><br />Have you read Into the Odd? Apparently its combat system was inspired by this post...<br />; )<br /><br />It’s flattering that McDowall credits me with any part of his design...from what I’ve heard ItO has quite a following. But designers borrow from other designers all the time (I know I do!); often “new” ideas and “innovations” are simply repurposing ideas others have used for different things (and were...originally...probably natural evolutions of rudimentary systems). I’m glad someone found a use for this particular brainstorm. Funny thing is, when I tried to use it for D&D, I found I preferred the original game’s system In Practice (the hypothesis didn’t pan out). It would take a good, patient designer to build a game around the idea...and evidently that must describe ItO’s author.<br /><br />I *am* glad it keeps firing up your brain, though. I’m always happy when something I write inspires others or helps their gaming. Not enough tabletop gaming in this world, IMO.<br />: )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-10556630068176534342021-04-01T12:27:00.215-07:002021-04-01T12:27:00.215-07:00I didn't know that Into the Odd was based on t...I didn't know that Into the Odd was based on this post, but I'm glad that you get the recognition. I've read this a thousand times and still come back time after time trying to design the other half that is missing.Jack Tremainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906068267967864239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-68385413285537348672021-02-15T08:58:50.889-08:002021-02-15T08:58:50.889-08:00I have seen Into the Odd, but I haven't purcha...I have seen Into the Odd, but I haven't purchased, read, or played it. I believe that it's possible to play without attack rolls (and from what you wrote it sounds like ItO does a good job with such a system) but for [reasons] I've found IN PRACTICE that D&D works better WITH the system as originally designed.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-18815972087580378192021-02-09T09:31:42.726-08:002021-02-09T09:31:42.726-08:00I just came across this post while searching for t...I just came across this post while searching for the blogpost that inspired Chris McDowall to use auto-hits in Into the Odd, which he mentioned in his recent Youtube video.<br /><br />I'm not sure if you've ever come across Into the Odd (or its derivatives like Electric Bastionland and Mausritter), but it's rather good, and definitely shows that rolling to hit is not necessary to still keep that classic D&D feel. Combat in that game feels dangerous, but satisfying, and it's quick to run.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-50040852726586478262018-01-19T10:09:46.340-08:002018-01-19T10:09:46.340-08:00@ Aaron Hamric: Somehow your comment got deleted f...@ Aaron Hamric: Somehow your comment got deleted from the blog. Not sure how that happened.<br /><br />But in response, I'd just say that IN PRACTICE the auto-hit rule didn't work well enough to retain. Part of the problem was that it didn't scale well enough across multiple models (large creatures, incorporeal, missile combat, etc.). It worked VERY well for "man-to-man" battle...but D&D is about a lot more than that, generally speaking.<br /><br />Aaron wrote:<br /><br />’d make the classes roll a certain damage die based on their combat proficiency. Weedy wizards roll d4, thieves and clerics roll d6, fighters roll d8. Circumstances that grant advantage or disadvantage to the attacker (adv. for a 2-handed weapon wielded by a strong enough dude/attacking from the high ground or disadv. for firing arrows in poor lighting or fighting in chest-deep bog water) would shift the die up or down one step. Only apply one case of advantage or disadvantage to an attack, and if both apply, they cancel out and the die stays the same. I’m thinking d2<—>d4<—>d6<—>d8<—>d10 etc, up to d20 to account for magical/other effects/weapon type (an ancient orbital LASER attack platform left by the Ancients might have a d12, or a d20 with a good firing solution, ie advantage).<br /><br />Keep the bonuses to damage from Str and magic weapons and just add them to the damage rolls, and consider adding Dex to ranged attacks. Make armor reduce damage based on its AC bonus, same for dex. Minimum weapon damage is equal to 1/4 the character’s level for mages (rounded up), 1/2 the PC’s level for thieves and clerics (rounded up), or equal to the fighter’s level, capped by the die they are rolling (4 for a d4, 6 for a d6, etc.)<br /><br />Just spitballing.<br /><br />I really like this auto-hit thing. JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-74420462797512465972010-06-02T17:05:17.770-07:002010-06-02T17:05:17.770-07:00Very interestingVery interestingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-3489205357272747812010-05-30T16:50:48.036-07:002010-05-30T16:50:48.036-07:00@Entertainer13: Thanks...I'm glad it was food ...@Entertainer13: Thanks...I'm glad it was food for thought.<br /><br />Personally, I don't find the tables much more difficult than the current tables...I don't do THAC0 calcs in my head and always check the tables anyway.<br /><br />But the damage shifts might take a little getting used to, I agree. In the end, I wanted a way of subtracting attack rolls that still accounted for characters' class, level, and opponents' AC.<br />: )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-56175411822534967672010-05-30T14:37:44.508-07:002010-05-30T14:37:44.508-07:00You bring up some interesting points, and to tell ...You bring up some interesting points, and to tell the truth, you were right on your early analysis. In a lot of games, it IS about the combat. I'd have argued D&D, but after 4th Edition, that's 100% true.<br /><br />I think your table risks making things more confusing than I would like in a system with no attack rolls. The goal for me would be more simplicity, but it's a great start for combining it with a current system, as is your goal.<br /><br />You've given me a lot to think about, and I'm likely to bookmark this page. :)Matthew Connershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08476037055807110705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-15117800904732173762010-05-29T19:44:08.978-07:002010-05-29T19:44:08.978-07:00@ Rainswept - does that take into account class/le...@ Rainswept - does that take into account class/level? Or are you just trying to speed combat up faster with a damage multiplier? <br /><br />That IS crazy!<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-16965428511796573182010-05-29T19:07:24.233-07:002010-05-29T19:07:24.233-07:00What about keeping the d20 roll and the auto-hit.....What about keeping the d20 roll <b>and</b> the auto-hit... divide your attack result by 5 (or 10 for the faint of heart) - strength and magic weapons still helpful here - and use as a multiplier on the damage die.<br /><br />Minimum 1 or round all results up, natch.rainswepthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06165059567790555748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-18024845133457777432010-05-29T09:44:24.187-07:002010-05-29T09:44:24.187-07:00@ Matthew: checked out your blog (thanks for the l...@ Matthew: checked out your blog (thanks for the link!) and posted my comments there.<br /><br />@ Norm: And shouldn't fighting 5 kobolds (or 5 orcs or 5 whatever) be a nasty proposition? Even for high level characters? 'Cause they can swarm your ass and knock you down and pin you and poke daggers in your eye-holes?<br /><br />This is why knights of old rode horses against the peasant footmen.<br /><br />Why is ranged combat such a deal-breaker for folks? I look at it this way: if ranged combat is a credible threat, than it should do damage (at least 1 point) every round. Otherwise, it's just set dressing ("oh the goblins rain arrows around you, but as long as you are behind the rocks you're fine...they're terrible shots"). If there's a chance to be hit, roll damage because the PC (or monster) is either expending energy evading OR they are blithely advancing and will take at least a graze or two.<br /><br />OR (jeez) for those who REALLY want missiles to have a chance of missing DO THIS:<br /><br />For every range increment SUBTRACT 1 POINT from the damage ROLL: i.e. at short range -1, at medium range -2, at long range -3. <br /><br />ALSO: dexterity adjustments to missile combat apply to DAMAGE rolls, but only to off-set range penalties. For example, an archer with a 13 dexterity (+1 to missile combat) will ALWAYS do at least 1 point of damage at short range, but has a chance to miss at medium (-1 from the damage roll) or long (-2). But at short range, he's going to DRILL you unless you are dodging.<br /><br />There, problem solved. I will update the .pdf.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-39456892028180196592010-05-29T08:33:14.728-07:002010-05-29T08:33:14.728-07:00But rolling dice is fun! Really.
Combat ain'...But rolling dice is fun! Really.<br /><br />Combat ain't that slow(with B/OD&D). Combat becomes slow(er) as player decision points increase (multiple attacks, endless modifiers to add up, variable weapon damage, numerous feats/skills to apply, multiple actions per round, initiative sequencing, etc). And so reducing those is were I believe the best/biggest faster play payoff resides. <br /><br />Still, it's a neat system. Would be esp good for large/mass combat.<br /><br />DR is fine cause with this system cause the hit point abstraction includes to-hit and armor protection. Personally find charts are slower than something like DR.<br /><br />Since ranged combat is so different and doesn't abstract nicely like melee requiring to-hits for ranged attacks only seems like nice way to handle that.<br /><br />I do like how bad/dangerous this makes all combat. No matter what/how wimpy opponents are you are taking at least 1hp/rnd. Also, fighting 5 kolbolds 5hp/rnd is pretty deadly.Norman J. Harman Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01319655075997712313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-2143551117006000952010-05-28T19:24:38.844-07:002010-05-28T19:24:38.844-07:00OK: I thought a lot more about this and like it ev...OK: I thought a lot more about this and like it even more. My thoughts got too involved to put in a comment, so I had to post them on my blog. They are here: http://wheel-of-samsara.blogspot.com/2010/05/one-roll-combat-redux-and-inverse.htmlMatthew Slepinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056247825064943944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-84410327583730780212010-05-28T12:59:58.922-07:002010-05-28T12:59:58.922-07:00Personally, I'm with JB and don't like Arm...Personally, I'm with JB and don't like Armour as Damage reduction in D&D. It goes against the whole point of Hit Points as an abstract measure of lots of things other than health and of damage incorporating many things beyond hurting someone.<br /><br />OTOH, Armour as DR works in soemthing like Runequest because combat is not abstract, Hit Points only represent health, and damage only represetns getting poked with soemthing in that game.Matthew Slepinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056247825064943944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-14356749820729100322010-05-28T11:57:29.325-07:002010-05-28T11:57:29.325-07:00I’d written up a system like this before, but I ne...I’d written up a system like this before, but I never got to playtest it. I did armor as DR. The numbers were set up so that the “can’t ever penetrate it's armor” problem would be rare. (It was unlikely for DR to exceed 5.) Fighters did d6+1 damage and mages did d6-1. So, a mage could “miss” even an unarmored foe. I was, however, trying to stick to d6 at the time.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-51444869036355181282010-05-28T11:29:51.435-07:002010-05-28T11:29:51.435-07:00@ A.L.: armor can only do so much. Against a deter...@ A.L.: armor can only do so much. Against a determined, savvy foe (like a high level character) the only thing that's going to save you is your own luck and experience (i.e. hit points). A 10th level fighter wearing plate mail is going to have the same high degree of protection against inexperienced opponents (Normal Men and 1st level fighters) that ANYONE wearing plate mail will have...it is still effective.<br /><br />And against a higher level character (say another 10th level fighter) it will still offer a degree of protection. The 10th level fighter still "rolls for damage;" if he rolls a "1" than your experienced character blocked the blow (i.e. the experienced opponent flubbed or you used a cagey tactic to catch his blow on your vambrace or whatever). You still take 1 point of damage...from impact, from fatigue, from the stress of the combat...but you don't take 6 or 8 or 10 points. If your opponent HAD rolled that high damage roll, it would mean YOU flubbed up (as even high level characters sometimes do), or through a poor stroke of luck he got a "critical hit" of some sort.<br /><br />I think the principal works just as well for ranged combat. We just may need to adjust our thinking a bit.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-27830766596574231112010-05-28T07:11:48.164-07:002010-05-28T07:11:48.164-07:00I still think you'd have more luck using armor...I still think you'd have more luck using armor as a DR. A low level fighter versus a low level fighter, armor is going to be a big deal as neither has the strength to really go through it.<br /><br />You said that a High Level fighter will know the chinks to go through, but a high level fighter will also know how to use the armor better to protect those very same chinks.<br /><br />High level versus low level you also are fine as the High Level fighter's ability to hit the chinks is represented by their better damage roll.<br /><br />This also solves the problem with poison from scorpions and such, if the attack gets a point of damage through the character's armor and do X damage still, then it is a good enough hit for the poison to hit the person and need to be saved against. If not, it doesn't.<br /><br />For ranged combat you could also switch it. Instead of doing a damage roll you do a To Hit roll. Particularly high to hit rolls give a modifer to the set damage. So like an arrow does 2 damage, but if for every 3 points you succeed on the to hit roll with, the multiplier gets increased. Of course, then you're back at needing to know a Defense Difficulty. Your way probably works better for that.A.L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05306497273874881493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-28205865683285294562010-05-27T19:52:04.049-07:002010-05-27T19:52:04.049-07:00@ Everyone: Check out the new .pdf download...hope...@ Everyone: Check out the new .pdf download...hopefully it will answer some of these questions.<br /><br />MEANWHILE: I'll try to answer folks individually right now!<br />; )<br /><br />@ Derek: B/X has saves...they don't go away. Characters attacked by a monster need to make a save to see if it's special attack takes effect. The save is their opportunity to avoid the attack...by luck, skill, and/or awareness.<br /><br />However, only one save is made per round per attack by a monster. If a carrion crawler attacks, the character makes 1 save vs. paralysis, not 8. Make it you save...no "keep rolling till the odds kill you."<br /><br />@ Kelvin: damage is still based on class & level...fighters at high levels have a much bigger damage shift than other characters. Check out the attack matrix. : )<br /><br />@ Mhensley: I considered something like this, but then I realized it was already taken into account by the matrices. Against non-experienced adventurers, armor is going to make a big difference...against more savvy veterans, hit points are going to prove the main defense against a foe that knows the chinks in one's armor.<br /><br />@ Sax Violence: How dare you!<br />; )<br /><br />I'm just making room for the type of adventuring you CAN'T do in WoW, joker!<br /><br />@ Alan: I though spells were finite because of their greater power/damage potential. A 7D6 fireball is still a vicious piece of work!<br /><br />@ Everyone (re Ranged Combat): The bottom line still stands: why make an attack roll AND a damage roll? <br /><br />A low missile damage roll could mean the target's a little winded from ducking, or catching the bolt on his/her shield, or gets a grazing scatch, or gets an arrow that passes through the flesh without hitting a bone or artery or severing a muscle. High damage rolls are bleeders, gougers, pinners, or a sling stone that strikes between the eyes causing a concussion. Mark off a round of ammunition.<br /><br />@ Zzarchov (did I spell that right?): I've blogged my thoughts on saving throws before. They represent a character's ability to save his bacon from the effect.<br /><br />Monsters have "special effects" to be used...that's their purpose (kind of like the bomb's purpose is to explode). Just let the effect go off...no more than once per round per monster per target. The character gets a save, just like normal, and if he/she makes it their bacon is saved. Totally easy.<br /><br />For effects that don't normally have saves (like a purple worm's swallow or a yeti's hug attack), give 'em a roll versus paralysis, or require the creature to roll max damage. I wouldn't translate special abilities into straight damage.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-55963405164764692362010-05-27T19:01:41.924-07:002010-05-27T19:01:41.924-07:00Great idea Zzarchov.
HP bonus per level from wear...Great idea Zzarchov.<br /><br />HP bonus per level from wearing armor would preserve the spirit of dealing damage every round and still allow a wide range of dice to be used.<br /><br />This system could really work...Mousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12629844725723989153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-37053953928330410232010-05-27T18:58:33.561-07:002010-05-27T18:58:33.561-07:00I Like this idea a lot.
Another option to conside...I Like this idea a lot.<br /><br />Another option to consider... Use Armor class as a damage 'absorb'. Have a high dex? Take away one point of damage from every attack. Wearing Chainmail? Take away two points from every attack.<br /><br />This will let you use a wider spectrum of dice and help distinguish the fighter from other classes. It may go against the idea that you will deal damage every round but it would make the system much simpler.Mousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12629844725723989153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-65268273818508254042010-05-27T18:44:09.439-07:002010-05-27T18:44:09.439-07:00Oh: And special attacks - either treat it as a sp...Oh: And special attacks - either treat it as a spell, or if its triggered by a specific event (like a scorpian hitting with two claws) then make it based on rolling specific numbers.<br /><br />Ie if a scorpian gets two attacks, and they both come up with the same number (see above post) then an extra damage die for the tail is rolled. Yes mathematically this means the wizard with no armour (while taking more damage) is less likely to get snagged and hit with a tail than the warrior in plate, consider it the benefit of being a lightly armoured skirmisher.Zzarchovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07714805545939725730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-43900769585178753822010-05-27T18:40:18.111-07:002010-05-27T18:40:18.111-07:00Multiple Attacks:
This is an easy fix: Roll mult...Multiple Attacks:<br /><br />This is an easy fix: Roll multiple dice and choose the best one. For each max roll beyond the first, add +1 to the result.<br /><br />Armour as Damage reduction gets back to "missing" if you roll less damage than the DR. But consider making Shields, Dex or Helmets etc Give MORE HP.<br /><br />Ie, a Helmet give +1hp per level, a shield might give +1hp per level AND shift the damage die.<br /><br />Come to think of it, the Helmet giving HP idea is good even in my system...Zzarchovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07714805545939725730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-42660646491367355092010-05-27T17:25:27.423-07:002010-05-27T17:25:27.423-07:00re: Ranged Combat
We're running a Weird West ...re: Ranged Combat<br /><br />We're running a Weird West game with OD&D + B/X rules right now. It's hard to imagine people getting *SHOT* with a rifle and continuing to happily adventure... and that really shouldn't be much different from being shot with an arrow. Unless the attack reduces someone to 1 or less hit points we're going with "reducing hit points = getting tired and/or luck is running out".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-2664241052028508542010-05-27T17:17:57.308-07:002010-05-27T17:17:57.308-07:00I like this very much. :)
I've been moving an...I like this very much. :)<br /><br />I've been moving an increasing number of things in our game over to a <a href="http://robertsongames.com/role-playing-games/roleplaying-game-the-dx-system" rel="nofollow">dice step mechanic</a> that's very similar to what you've outlined. The idea of removing to-hit rolls and just rolling damage is perfect for making things move along faster and would be particularly good for gaming via Skype or play-by-post.<br /><br />Nice!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13457050225967190052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-44406296026052723932010-05-27T16:42:34.071-07:002010-05-27T16:42:34.071-07:00Re ranged weapons:
Low damage could represent the...Re ranged weapons:<br /><br />Low damage could represent the fear caused by an arrow whistling by your head.<br /><br />Or maybe missile weapons can 'pin down' their opponents even if they miss (ie their opponents are unable to move, miss their strike etc)<br /><br />Or maybe the attacker rolls to see how many arrowe etc they use to get that hit. If they run out, no hit. This would also mean that characters were no longer shooting once per minute, which some people find unrealistic.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.com