tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post3659739153573751737..comments2024-03-28T00:41:13.514-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Out of the DungeonJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-13061154578203295542020-01-28T19:16:53.820-08:002020-01-28T19:16:53.820-08:00I forgot to add this: the classes, races, and opti...I forgot to add this: the classes, races, and options in the AD&D Players Handbook and Unearthed Arcana have been B/X-ified in the Old School Essentials Advanced Fantasy Genre Rules book. In my opinion, its handled in an elegant and thoughtful way and supports a broader ("more advanced") style of play.Vondyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01347692010322519231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-70162702989200958532020-01-28T08:50:12.725-08:002020-01-28T08:50:12.725-08:00I haven't associated B/X with "dungeons&q...I haven't associated B/X with "dungeons" any more than I do other versions of D&D in a very long time. I have run games with fully realized characters and settings in B/X. Its true that AD&D implies a setting, but that raises a few questions. Is that the setting you want to explore? If so, I say go for it, but you don't necessarily need the AD&D mechanics to explore that setting. You could just run Greyhawk, which all those class elements you mention stronly mirror, using B/X. Most of those things don't need to be mechanically codified so you don't need to homebrew much. For me, I keep gravitating back to B/X for two reasons: internal consistency and simplicity. I find the simpler rules get out of the way of character, setting, and story. You mention that we use B/X to explore dungeons. I would argue that looking up from the foxhole you see a battlefield and looking up from the battlefield reveals a countryside. The dungeon is just a hole in the ground in a bigger world. The least important thing about my characters are their mechanics. What defines them, and becomes their stories, are their choices. That's what tells me who they are. This is why, for instance, 5e is not my cup of tea. Its all about what your character can do and not about what they did and why they did it! I'm not telling you not switch to AD&D 1e or even 2e. I have played both and they have things they do well. I'm just saying you should consider whether you have backed B/X into an unnecessary corner and are imposing limitations on it that aren't really there. In a lot of ways the less of B/X is more.Vondyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01347692010322519231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-72889735875132320232020-01-26T21:05:42.062-08:002020-01-26T21:05:42.062-08:00I feel like I'm missing something. I can under...I feel like I'm missing something. I can understand the desire to shift to a more fleshed out world over dungeon crawls but I don't really see how AD&D gets you there. The advanced classes were mostly created to emulate specific fictional characters without much effort at an implied world, let alone a world where all these characters made sense. Thieves can read magic scrolls because Cugel the Clever & the Gray Mouser could. Paladins have special horses because Holm Croger could. Clerics are quasi-Christian in abilities but AD&D glossed over the setting implications. <br /><br />Likewise the various encounter tables and such could be imported into BX. There's a lot of inspiration for world building in AD&D but I don't see why you can't just import these ideas into BX. I think there's a lot to be said for Fr Dave's approach where to create a coherent world you pare down the details - fewer classes and monsters and come up with a world where they all make sense. Crouchbackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02633154359317901331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-26977263164864920262020-01-21T03:18:32.118-08:002020-01-21T03:18:32.118-08:00One of the things I appreciated from AD&D was ...One of the things I appreciated from AD&D was the "implied" campaign details, which definitely give the DM a good basis to expand and build. On the other hand, the Expert set was explicitly designed to bring characters outside of the dungeon, although it didn't have the same implied setting details as AD&D, so in my experience it requires more work from the DM. As someone said once (possibly Steven Marsh or Frank Mentzer?) the really "advanced" game (requiring more DM creativity and input) is Classic D&D, not AD&D.Antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17258180992723371727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-84254746862571013082020-01-19T09:22:43.285-08:002020-01-19T09:22:43.285-08:00Wow. This...isn't the post I expected to read ...Wow. This...isn't the post I expected to read on your blog. I applaud your evolution as a gamer.<br /><br />I started with Basic in 1977 and went through these same feelings even as I moved on to AD&D. That was 1979-81 however.<br /><br />My experience differed largely in that:<br /><br />A) I was never really a Fantasy fan per se, and once I realized there were Sci-Fi and Superhero games I was like, "What? Why aren't I playing those then?".<br /><br />B) I played under a number of bad DMs, who emphasized all the worst aspects of Gygaxian style play and the weaknesses of the system. This after starting my first session with a DM whose bottom line rule was, "What a great idea! That sounds so cool. Sure you can do that thing not covered in the rules as it makes total action-movie sense!"<br /><br />The question of where you go from here is one I am very eager to follow along with as you search for the answer. Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-86827615438767964162020-01-19T07:46:57.247-08:002020-01-19T07:46:57.247-08:00There is a reason I've come to prefer the term...There is a reason I've come to prefer the term Classic over Basic. Using Basic to describe BX or BECMI only describes one small part of the rules and implied that the Advanced game is better or something you move to when you've mastered Basic. <br /><br />I'm not trying to discourage you from starting to play with AD&D, I just feel your description of BX (or Classic) D&D to be off-putting.<br /><br />To echo John Higgins, do you want the rules to reflect the lore of the world(AD&D and Greyhawk)? Or do you want the lore/setting to reflect the rules(Classic)?Lance Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817319325489613672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-22595716044000958282020-01-18T22:32:33.210-08:002020-01-18T22:32:33.210-08:00I long ago came around to the view—TSR's ortho...I long ago came around to the view—TSR's orthodoxy, even—that D&D and AD&D are two separate but very similar games. <br /><br />As others have already said, BECMI does all of the same things that you've pointed out AD&D does; it just does them in an alternate way, so that the flavor is less Gygax and pulp novels, more Mentzer and Elmore and 80s fantasy novels.<br /><br />But the claim that D&D isn't about exploring worlds? That seems a little off to me, given that getting out of the dungeon is the entire point of the Expert Set. The Basic Set lives in the dungeon; but everything from level four on up—hex crawls, Gazetteers, dominions—it too implies a world. A world with more Saturday morning cartoon Arthur-and-Merlin gadzookery, and less thinly-veiled Yog-Sothothery, to be sure. <br /><br />Maybe that won't satisfy everyone the same way Lolth and Iuz and Juiblex will.<br /><br />I guess what I'm asking is, is it the rules system you're after, or is it all that canonical Gygaxian lore? To a certain extent they're inextricable, but they're still not exactly the same thing.John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-46077362021099322832020-01-18T15:24:58.068-08:002020-01-18T15:24:58.068-08:00@ Bob:
It sure feels like the third (or maybe the...@ Bob:<br /><br />It sure feels like the third (or maybe the fourth), but I think it’s actually the 2nd specifically addressing the inadequacies (for me, as I see it) of the B/X system. And it’s the first where I really state “enough is enough.” <br /><br />I think. Maybe I’m wrong.<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-79641706355909627382020-01-18T12:54:54.468-08:002020-01-18T12:54:54.468-08:00Isn't this the third post where you explain wh...Isn't this the third post where you explain why you're moving toward AD&D 1e?Bob Portnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04563075580066984380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-48792546178105261312020-01-17T23:22:23.742-08:002020-01-17T23:22:23.742-08:00I think BECMI, even if you leave off the I like I ...I think BECMI, even if you leave off the I like I did as a kid, does a pretty good job of "opening up D&D" to exploring the world, not just dungeons. But I also get where you're coming from with wanting all the little bits of color that AD&D has that Classic lacks. I add a lot of those into my house rules for Classic D&D. <br /><br />Also, this post reminded me of one of the threads on The Forge that primed me for the OSR: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=22161.0<br /><br />There's a lot of discussion about the setting implied by the rules of BX.Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-43734495842533576092020-01-17T13:27:19.312-08:002020-01-17T13:27:19.312-08:00I went through an OD&D phase about 15 years ag...I went through an OD&D phase about 15 years ago, and it was a thought process very similar to what you describe above that eventually led me back to AD&D (and, specifically, the later "baroque era" of 80s-era AD&D where the MM2, UA, and World of Greyhawk box amp up the worldbuilding even more than the core AD&D books, and point to even further development in that area, which Gygax never go to, but I have through my house rules and additions)Trenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889179660165006042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-89414721934709788882020-01-16T16:35:30.433-08:002020-01-16T16:35:30.433-08:00Interesting post, seems as I am getting back to B/...Interesting post, seems as I am getting back to B/X after a very long time away, your are moving away from it. I can see your points, but for me B/X always had an exploration aspect to it beyond the dungeon. Brutorz Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10261330634648140358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-84982960074670825052020-01-16T13:36:35.435-08:002020-01-16T13:36:35.435-08:00I completely get where you are going with this...I...I completely get where you are going with this...I see the same world-building implications in the Holmes edition of Basic. The rules assume certain implied realities that suggest a world that defies convention. Some of those assumptions play a huge role in the way I world build and play the game. Doing a deep dive into certain rules to come out the other side with a realized world is a lot of fun. To be honest, however, I have never much had the energy to do it with AD&D. So I am glad you are doing it so I don't have to ;)...FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-88170467350131969802020-01-16T13:07:59.395-08:002020-01-16T13:07:59.395-08:00And isn't Expert just another way of saying Ad...And isn't Expert just another way of saying Advanced?Lance Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817319325489613672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-4745364407431249462020-01-16T13:06:12.351-08:002020-01-16T13:06:12.351-08:00Well, yes and no. I think of BX as about exploring...Well, yes and no. I think of BX as about exploring, not just exploring dungeons (which I honestly think the most interesting of places to send a party). <br /><br />AD&D is just more of everything. You can throw in a city environment in BX as well, it just doesn't need all the "chrome" of AD&D (or later editions). I entered the D&D world via AD&D, to be fair, and I loved it. But it was never more than a fun way to have an adventure--and our adventures took place in dungeons, primarily. <br /><br />To each their own. I have never been a fan of "guilds" and the generally political interplay of cities. But, as I said, to each their own. A good adventure is a good adventure. pugbuddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07044565757701097331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-72086229269628103232020-01-16T13:04:45.369-08:002020-01-16T13:04:45.369-08:00I think it's interesting that you associate bx...I think it's interesting that you associate bx with the dungeon. It's true that we played BECMI, but we only had 2 pcs reach 10th level while my dad was dming. Most of our adventures were wilderness/City adventures. Our play was defined by b10 and the x series and what followed naturally from those beginnings. Sure we delved the occasional dungeon, but it wasn't what defined D&D(which was Basic/BECMI at the time) for me.<br /><br />I think the implications of a setting/world you see in AD&D is also present in bx. It's simply buried deeper in the text/rules. Some of that shines through in BECMI, maybe if bx had gotten its promised companion book there would have been more exploration of the default setting similar to AD&D. <br /><br />But that implied setting certainly exists in Basic dnd. You even bring up that all elves are just elves, they don't specialize. Well what does that say about the world and the fact that all elves can use magic? It wasn't really until I stated my analysis of the cleric spell list that I saw how the rules really spelled out the basis for a world. The druid(from BECMI) being a subclass of the cleric who goes off in the woods and to learn a new way of life makes so much more sense to me now. The Basic cleric and his church clearly have connections to the natural world(plants, animals, etc) and condemns the perversion of that natural order(undead), so a cleric going into the woods to become closer to their God makes a whole lot of sense.<br /><br />I agree that adnd has an implied setting, but so does basic, and they are quite different from each other both in how they are implied and what is implied. Though really I guess the implied setting of adnd is just greyhawk as it was played at Gary's table and not necessarily what was published. Adnd was built with that setting in mind, whereas in basic the rules came first and out of those rules an implied setting emerges.Lance Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817319325489613672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-39815126925363238132020-01-16T12:58:03.446-08:002020-01-16T12:58:03.446-08:00Hello. I agree with the first part about what D&am...Hello. I agree with the first part about what D&D is (hidden room/exploration game), but not the second part that you need AD&D outside of the dungeon. I think that the X in BX deals with the wilderness and the wider world. There's plenty of rules for exploration in there and the monsters are mostly those outside of the dungeon.<br /><br />The challenge I believe is to provide a wilderness or world with a series of situations that the players need to use their PCs to solve through brains, brawn, diplomacy and guile. In a free form game that's harder than the closed system of a dungeon.<br /><br />Interested in how you develop your ideas further.Jacob72https://www.blogger.com/profile/17268402292420473229noreply@blogger.com