tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post3127397773884554635..comments2024-03-29T03:53:01.413-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Classic PrimingJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-48826925055293088242021-09-25T18:36:26.505-07:002021-09-25T18:36:26.505-07:00And I support that. Any serious meaningful discus...And I support that. Any serious meaningful discussion of the problem at hand - deconstructing and thus understanding the game - HAS to supercede phrasing like, "such-and-such is a mess." This is a completely useless and non-fruitful line of dialogue and I'd like to see the participants of D&D adopt a more practical stance on the subject.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-15245392866654387402021-09-25T18:17:40.927-07:002021-09-25T18:17:40.927-07:00Yeah.
Look, everyone's got their reasons for...Yeah. <br /><br />Look, everyone's got their reasons for liking what they like, and I get that. I was just looking at purchasing a French "sword & planet" RPG that has a delightful premise and evocative artwork that I would (probably) never play. <br /><br />But my assertion that AD&D is the "best, true edition" isn't based on just personal preference or "what JB likes;" truth be told, there's much about AD&D that doesn't thrill me. <br /><br />But I needed a baseline for my thesis. AD&D, in my analysis, is it.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-5925500512216890562021-09-25T14:48:56.816-07:002021-09-25T14:48:56.816-07:00I puzzle over the cognitive dissonance that allows...I puzzle over the cognitive dissonance that allows the same reader in the same short paragraph to ad hoc deride one system for it's shortcomings - without giving real examples - while alternatively forgiving another system other shortcomings - again, without giving examples - on no more stable a premise than talking with authority.<br /><br />It's a sure way to recognize someone talking right through their hat.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-29346540536204084102021-09-25T14:08:25.497-07:002021-09-25T14:08:25.497-07:00I had to look up the word “polemics.” You learn so...I had to look up the word “polemics.” You learn something new every day.<br />; )<br /><br />I disagree with your analysis of and comparison between OD&D and AD&D. I didn’t really want these posts to become a discussion / argument between editions, but I was stupid to just assume I could throw out something like “this is it” and not provide additional elaboration / explanation.<br /><br />I guess that will be next week’s posts.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-87729723717240290972021-09-25T11:14:42.784-07:002021-09-25T11:14:42.784-07:00I can chum the water with polemics as well.
AD&am...I can chum the water with polemics as well.<br /><br />AD&D is a mess. The DMG is a mostly random set of poorly collated notes and sometimes conflicting mechanics.<br /><br />The majority of AD&D's decent aspects are found in the first three LBBs. Sure the extra spells are nice but the combat is a broken mire of Gygax's obsessive maximalism and his strange ahistorical weapons obsessions (e.g. spears are bad because primitives used them, but every type of polearm must have a distinct statline). OD&D (The first 3 only - again Gygax ruins stuff with his weird house rules).<br /><br />It's precisely because it's not a compleationist mess that OD&D functions -- yes it has voids, but voids are unavoidable, and at least OD&D has a solid simple base set of rules to help referee's fill them. AD&D requires at least as much work to function -- and while I think it can, as a product it's tournament D&D focused on designer control as much as any Chris Perkins' railroad 5E adventure.<br /><br />Otherwise I'm on board with your discussion of story and classic play.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-31167115639728941432021-09-24T23:05:16.194-07:002021-09-24T23:05:16.194-07:00@ JH:
I have a rebuttal for you (re BECMI), but i...@ JH:<br /><br />I have a rebuttal for you (re BECMI), but it deserves its own post.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-71772701493822154332021-09-24T16:40:11.702-07:002021-09-24T16:40:11.702-07:00I am not familiar with “Middlemarch,” but I have a...I am not familiar with “Middlemarch,” but I have at least watched the GoT TV series. It’s not a bad analogy to a D&D campaign unfolding…if you remove the predestination of the Stark family characters (and to be fair, most of them DO die…and fall by the wayside, over several seasons worth of “adventure”).<br /><br />But no…GoT, despite having elements of “fantasy adventure” isn’t very representative of D&D.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-9885360015763524882021-09-24T15:24:56.469-07:002021-09-24T15:24:56.469-07:00And of course I just can't help but quibble wi...And of course I just can't help but quibble with your take on the edition wars. (It's a pet issue, sue me.) :Þ<br /><br />I agree with you that there's only one definitive edition of <i>Advanced</i> Dungeons & Dragons, and that's Gygax's First Edition. 100% on board with you there. Every later edition in its lineage is just increasingly injurious and insulting to the kind of game that Gary built.<br /><br />But Dungeons & Dragons is another matter entirely. If your contention is that the white box is an unfinished proto-game… well, I disagree, but let's grant that contention for the sake of argument. I'll further add that Holmes Basic and B/X are equally unfinished. (I'm not keen on B/X precisely for its liminal position in the OD&D lineage.) <br /><br />The <i>D&D</i> game has its highest expression in Frank Mentzer's <b>BECMI</b>, which easily holds its position alongside AD&D 1E as a fellow tour de force of game design. A twin "greatest game ever." Slightly less iconic perhaps than AD&D, but decidedly more functional at higher experience levels.<br /><br />Put that in your dice bag and roll it! :DJohn Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-46456291652570297932021-09-24T15:07:25.348-07:002021-09-24T15:07:25.348-07:00It's a point that I've struggled to put in...It's a point that I've struggled to put into words before, but your third "story that matters" is, I think, the essential one that's lost when discussing how D&D campaigns are meant to work. The story that matters, long term, is the story of the campaign - everything from shifting political winds and the rise and fall of kingdoms, to the little adventures that take place when this or that band of rave-robbing ne'er-do-wells loots a dungeon. But the key thing is that the "story" isn't about one chosen hero, or a tight fellowship of protagonists. It's about the whole tapestry; the whole tableau. <br /><br />"Middlemarch" and "Game of Thrones" make for poor analogies to what I'm talking about here. Even less apt is the notion of an ant farm, but at least that idea reminds me of the concept of the "sim" game (like SimAnt, SimCity, and the like). We could, perhaps, conceive of a proper D&D milieu as a "Sim Fantasy Land," but instead of the nameless flashing tiles of SimCity, we know the names of all the many adventurers and faction leaders running around this world. And the world itself is a proving ground: while many of the adventurers will die, some will rise up and become mighty heroes (or villains), conquerors, kings, archmages, planes-travelers, demigods… <br /><br />Meh. I still haven't quite finished puzzling out what I mean by this. Which is why it's just a comment and not a blog post of my own.John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-35908616581715540352021-09-23T15:44:33.728-07:002021-09-23T15:44:33.728-07:00Luckily, I don't have half a brain... so I'...Luckily, I don't have half a brain... so I'm with you on there only being one true published version of D&D. However, I claim that it's actually B/X and the 3 AD&D books are apocryphal supplements that go into exhaustive, though unnecessary, detail. <br /><br /> Venger Satanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447932700800930510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-90140575862279838152021-09-23T06:34:48.177-07:002021-09-23T06:34:48.177-07:00Sadly much of this post is too dense and arcane fo...Sadly much of this post is too dense and arcane for me to completely understand it. It seems written in a foreign tongue by a learned scholar and I am neither a native speaker nor an academic. <br /><br />AD&D was both the game that solidified my interest in the hobby and completely turned me off to Dungeons and Dragons. The more I played other games the more flawed AD&D seemed.<br /><br />It may be the king of D&D but it no longer rules it's kingdom and its people have largely fled. I am curious as to why that is. Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-16697995421992047302021-09-23T06:24:44.564-07:002021-09-23T06:24:44.564-07:00This makes absolutely no sense to me, though I am ...This makes absolutely no sense to me, though I am glad it is appreciated. Adam Dicksteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04840144928096089178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-50460529521999305952021-09-23T01:26:21.873-07:002021-09-23T01:26:21.873-07:00Yet another mystery for sure.
Re: weapon vs. AC (...Yet another mystery for sure.<br /><br />Re: weapon vs. AC (specifically): surely THAT is a holdover from Chainmail, where the chance to kill an individual in a man-to-man duel was largely linked to weapon vs. armor. Such things DO matter in granular simulation…which D&D (and AD&D) largely does away with.<br /><br />Much as I’m inclined to streamline (i.e. “excise”) systems, the use of 21st century technology (specifically spreadsheets) makes it pretty simple to incorporate all the fiddly bits. Just as an aside: I’m currently writing up individual sheets for every class using A) the available weapon proficiencies (per the PHB) and B) the tables themselves to make an easy to use macro-list. I admit it’s a lot of work if only concerned with human v. human conflict (unless your PCs aren’t fighting many monsters), but at least the set-up will prevent ME from crying “Ugh! Too hard!” Let the Swiss Army Knife fighter revel in his/her weapon choice!<br /><br />[also: we always played with psionics back in the day. Although I’m not currently doing so, I plan on incorporating those rules once I’ve had a chance to kit-bash some spreadsheets for them, too! I mean…seriously…why not? Verisimilitude? The game has dragons, “medusae,” mind flayers, demons, and otyugh. Why not mental powers? F**k it…let’s roll]<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-27688125029906457572021-09-22T23:12:05.270-07:002021-09-22T23:12:05.270-07:00I expect managing people and expectations led to G...I expect managing people and expectations led to Gary not being more editorial. Especially when so much detail has been developed, it's hard to bring down the cleaver. I pulled the Gary quote from here: http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-big-mistake-in-weapon-vs-armor.html<br /><br />Additional quotes on that page provide more insight:<br />There is often player pressure to add complexities and complications to rules and systems, such additions being urged in areas that the players like and believe to be critical to enjoyment of the game. I did that for some writing in OAD&D and regretted it considerably thereafter – mainly weapons vs. armor types and psionics. – Gary Gygax, ENWorld Q&A, 24th July, 2003<br />In all, I included the details because of insistance of some avid palyers that were in touch with me, regretted listening to them, for the RPG is not suited to combat simulation... As I noted above, we never used the weapons vs. armor type adjustments. – Gary Gygax, ENWorld Q&A, 7th September, 2005<br /><br />Seems like he's throwing some people under the bus. Who are these "players" who had so much content influence on the original AD&D printing?Sir Robilarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00007504465124076115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-27735923765413412802021-09-22T22:24:23.796-07:002021-09-22T22:24:23.796-07:00B/X…especially the “B”…is extremely well crafted, ...B/X…especially the “B”…is extremely well crafted, even in terms of the presumptions it instills. All due respect to Holmes (who first pioneered the idea of such a work), Moldvay’s text is, in my opinion, the best introduction to D&D ever published. I still refer ALL newcomers to it, young and old.<br /><br />But AD&D is king.<br /><br />One thing about that EGG quote Sir Rob…a quote I’ve read before, and don’t doubt as far as “truthful intent:” GIVEN that Gygax was the final arbiter of what actually went into the AD&D books (from OD&D, supplements, Strategic Review mag, etc.) then Why O Why would he include things that he never used? Certainly there are OTHER rules in the OD&D books that failed to make it into AD&D (hit locations, for example, certain SR monsters, ten second segments, etc.). Other things were edited, changed, added and subtracted. Why leave on these “useless appendages?” The psionic rules are fairly well-detailed, for example…why devote a whole appendix and page of combat tables for such a system that never saw use?<br /><br />My GUESS is that Gygax liked the idea of such things but that such rules fell by the wayside in the heat of play, as often happens…that his quote is a summation of play as it occurred, not as it was desired or designed. But maybe I’m wrong and that was NOT the case…maybe other folks at TSR insisted on the inclusion of such systems and EGG was striving to appease them?<br /><br />It’s a mystery I doubt I’ll ever solve, but I do wonder about it. JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-66687617781820912112021-09-22T22:01:55.171-07:002021-09-22T22:01:55.171-07:00Certainly my journey isn’t everyone’s. Thanks for ...Certainly my journey isn’t everyone’s. Thanks for reading and best wishes on YOUR journey.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-29774788305709926342021-09-22T21:21:36.239-07:002021-09-22T21:21:36.239-07:00I love bringing young players, or "modern&quo...I love bringing young players, or "modern" players into B/X. It's truly cleansing and eye-opening for players who grew up with 3.5e, 4e or 5e. But my preference is AD&D (simplified). My simplifications seem to be in line with Gary's own: "I did not use psionics, generally ignored weapons vs. armor type and weapon speed." – Gary Gygax, ENWorld Q&A, 24th January, 2003Sir Robilarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00007504465124076115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-26180762665989800272021-09-22T19:43:17.884-07:002021-09-22T19:43:17.884-07:00I mentioned before I was a kid with blue book basi...I mentioned before I was a kid with blue book basic and a PHB and a copy of ready ref sheets.<br /><br />We played AD&D but it was what we could grasp, chose to grasp and invented or perverted. It had HPs, d20s and AC. The rest was there ish. I know we said fuck level limits as they didn't make sense to us, we ditched the antipathy tables as they were someone else's world ideals, we had continual light shit everywhere, we tracked food and water, encumbrance was made up on the fly to make carrying 100,000 GPS seem hard to do.<br /><br />What were we playing? It was and wasn't D&D. We thought we were playing D&D. I think we were playing D&D.<br /><br />I know this thing you grasp at is important this meaning or foundation or something. It will work for you. I feel it won't prove, solve nor enlighten anyone else save this is how you see play. Thats cool but in the end it's going to be Blackrazor sees this, a metric shitton of people will see different. That's not bad its just how it is.<br /><br />I think this journey is deeply personal and being such may fail to translate well beyond your perspectives.<br /><br />D&D isn't a platonic form, there is no true d&d in our human experience. It is all wonderful shadows on the wall. These shadows sparked our imaginations- our shared imaginations.<br /><br />But trying to ferret out what shadow is more substantial than another... it's your quest Mr. QUIXOTE. <br /><br />I hope your journey ends with more play more fun and more imaginings I can steal warp and use in my own shadow play.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17690743781700166627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-73210478867313411962021-09-22T15:30:46.258-07:002021-09-22T15:30:46.258-07:00"Feel like" has nothing to do with it, m..."Feel like" has nothing to do with it, man. <br /><br />- OD&D was a proto-game, an add-on, constantly evolving.<br />- Basic versions were designed to be incomplete introductions.<br />- Later editions became something OTHER than the original, complete version.<br /><br />You can...and should...play whatever flavor suits your fancy (and those of your table) at any given moment. I'm NOT telling you to follow MY WAY or I will spit on your grave or something. I'm not even say it is a TRUE WAY. Just the TRUE D&D.<br />; )<br /><br />My posts to follow will stem (in part) from this idea. Apologies if it ruffles feathers...can't be helped. <br /><br />[BTW, I wouldn't even say "One True Way-ism" IS "fine for religions." Different people/cultures need different belief systems. I'm happy to discuss my religion with interested parties, but I'm not an evangelist for it. Personally, I've always been turned off by pushy proselytizing]JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-24351618411091662562021-09-22T15:16:21.253-07:002021-09-22T15:16:21.253-07:00Exactly.
; )Exactly.<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-52381813351359383262021-09-22T14:43:17.690-07:002021-09-22T14:43:17.690-07:00The One True Edition, for you certainly.
Objecti...The One True Edition, for you certainly. <br /><br />Objectively there are 10 (or so depending on how you want to count it) True Editions of D&D. Whether or not they don't "feel like" D&D is immaterial. <br /><br />Subjectively the only "one true edition of D&D" is the one on your table that gives you joy at that time.<br /><br />Trying to find a "pure" or "true" edition of any game is folly and doomed for failure. Gygax didn't even play his so-called one true edition of D&D as it was written. <br />Hell I have been to conventions where <a href="https://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/2014/08/rpgaday-day-15-favourite-convention-game.html" rel="nofollow">I have played in games I have written at cons</a> and wondered what the GM was doing. Note, not always in a bad way.<br /><br />You mention "blatant ca$h grabs" but wasn't AD&D an attempt to not only isolate Arneson from future money but also to cut out the burgeoning DIY market growing at the time? <br /><br />So, sorry. "One true-wayism" is fine for religions, not for games.<br /><br />Tell me about your favorite edition and why it is your favorite and I am all ears and enthusiastic.<br /><br />Tell me there is only one edition and I assume you just haven't experienced any other game.Timothy S. Brannanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02923526503305233715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-13797332421193043302021-09-22T14:37:08.500-07:002021-09-22T14:37:08.500-07:00As much as I want to disagree and say that OD&...As much as I want to disagree and say that OD&D is the one true edition, I must grant that it is AD&D wherein miserly characters who choose to live in squalor can randomly die of disease or parasitic infection. Which pretty much makes it the best rpg ever.Korgothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04683370654357044679noreply@blogger.com