tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post2756173155559177383..comments2024-03-28T15:54:00.960-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: 3 Stages of Exploration (Part 4)JBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-25365767646296921782012-08-06T07:31:38.368-07:002012-08-06T07:31:38.368-07:00The author rants about the premise of the game, th...The author rants about the premise of the game, the mechanics, his own campaigns, and self promotes his own 'solutions' to the perceived problems. Which is all fine. Just not much to learn here.<br /><br />There's no reason why you cannot have a 1st level character ruling the world; many campaigns that people have run over the years feature roleplaying instead of combat and that's the style that makes that work. D&D is super flexible; it supports all modes of play.<br /><br />Just stop making your games all about combat and you'll be fine, because you've become very, very tired of it.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-91305872185422957322012-07-31T04:51:37.095-07:002012-07-31T04:51:37.095-07:00Sometimes I think people's obsession with mons...Sometimes I think people's obsession with monsters is what limits people to dungeon crawling at low levels, not the game itself. <br /><br />Inspired by some Conan stories, I started experimenting with urban adventuring at low levels, and found that it favored role playing, assassins, and thieves. "Dungeons" weren't necessarily cobwebby forgotten places or systems of caves, but could also be luxurious palaces, castles, and towers. <br /><br />The PCs are still little fish in a big pond, but they're interacting with big fish whose motivations aren't always roasting them alive on a spit. Even as pawns in a larger game, the PCs had the ability to affect the world around them by the choices they made.<br /><br />The thing is, when you play it this way, they're mostly interacting with people, not monsters. The enemy usually isn't the goblin king, but the local merchant-prince's magic user/cleric daughter and her guards, and maybe a few "pets" for flavor, but mostly it's humans and humanoids. There's more ways to deal with them. It's not always about "clearing" the dungeon. That might not even be possible or smart. More often it's about getting in, stealing something of enormous value, and getting out. <br /><br />Wilderness might even become a place of relative sanctuary, or at least a place to hide due to it's opened spaces. Is the duke after you? Flee to the forest while things blow over inside the city walls. Need a hideout? Then clear the giant spiders out a small system of caves you heard about from a farmer in the country tavern you took sanctuary in under a false name after narrowly avoiding the pursuing soldiers.Air Dominance Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05226097944494976185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-30682596851013548022012-07-30T14:11:59.891-07:002012-07-30T14:11:59.891-07:00I have to insert the obligatory "have you tri...I have to insert the obligatory "have you tried.." comment.<br /><br />Your first post in this series mentions you dislike skill based systems but The Fantasy Trip may give you what you are after.<br /><br />Adjustment of a bit of starting points, but more importantly focusing your initial skill buy into areas that let you effectively (through the mechanics) influence the world is very possible... Stage 2 from the start.<br /><br />You may be weak at fighting personally, but those skills can help you buy muscle and overcome obstacles with more than force of arms.<br /><br />I like your insights by the way, hits the nail on the head for me why the focus of 3rd and subsequnet editions never did it for me.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08231609275892907901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-53515867798113381832012-07-30T04:12:22.535-07:002012-07-30T04:12:22.535-07:00Eg in my Yggsburgh 1e AD&D chatroom game on Dr...Eg in my Yggsburgh 1e AD&D chatroom game on Dragonsfoot, after 23 sessions of play, each 2-3 hours, the PCs were Fighter-4, Fighter 3/M-U 2, Ranger 3, Cleric-4, and Fighter-2/Thief-3. The Fighter-4, who was the most active PC and rarely if ever missed a session, had the highest XP tally at 9857, with others ranging 5802-9301.<br /><br />http://smonsyggsburgh.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/pc-roster.htmlSimonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-83651675232918802972012-07-30T04:06:10.033-07:002012-07-30T04:06:10.033-07:00"Recently, I’ve been playing in an on-line B/..."Recently, I’ve been playing in an on-line B/X game. My character, a cleric, is the closest of the party members to leveling up, but he’s still only 1st level and we’ve been playing since April."<br /><br />A lot of online GMs are way too stingy with XP. The B/X (etc) XP systems works fine for a dungeon-centric treasure-centric game, but you see a lot of online GMs run heavy-roleplay diplomacy & intrigue centric games, but completely fail to award XP appropriately. They won't even use OD&D monster XP (1 hd = 100 XP), instead sticking to the stingy 'Greyhawk' model.<br /><br />In my own online games, I use OD&D-based monster kill XP and similar levels of XP awards for other achievements such as diplomatic and even romantic, I typically award three-figure XP awards in a 2-3 hour game session and might see the leading, most active PCs reaching 4th level in around 18-20 2-3 hour chatroom sessions. Eg at average 400 XP per session a Fighter with no attribute bonus might reach 2nd level in 5 sessions, 3rd level in 10 and 4th level in 20 - usually XP award per session ramps up gradually as the PCs reach higher level of course, but I'm happy to see fairly rapid initial advancement to 3rd or 4th level, then slower later.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-70823700900639813752012-07-30T03:58:44.449-07:002012-07-30T03:58:44.449-07:00When I want to run a Stage-2 game straight off, I ...When I want to run a Stage-2 game straight off, I start PCs at 3rd level, a la Dark Sun, or for a low-power feel I might give 1st level PCs a hp kicker = CON, or +10 hp.<br /><br />Likewise for starting at Stage-3 where the PCs are already movers and shakers, I have occasionally started games at 6th level, which seems right for eg AD&D, BX or 3e; for Mentzer BECMI/RC D&D you might want to start a Stage 3 campaign at 9th level, for 4e it would be 11th.<br /><br />BTW I find that for an old-school feel where power is earned, it is not necessary to start at 1st level, but it is necessary that new PCs come in at a fixed level, not at 'party level'. For a wandering badass game every PC can start at 3rd, for a movers & shakers game everyone can start at 6th or even 9th.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-53090124303024172182012-07-29T19:00:31.055-07:002012-07-29T19:00:31.055-07:00Maybe something from these might help with the bra...Maybe something from <a href="http://black-vulmea.blogspot.com/search/label/endgame" rel="nofollow">these</a> might help with the brainstorming.Black Vulmeahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04270071699114783644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-14074610487740502222012-07-29T15:05:18.277-07:002012-07-29T15:05:18.277-07:00Dark Sun (2e) solved the fragility problem by star...Dark Sun (2e) solved the fragility problem by starting PCs at 3rd level. It's what I do when I want to run a Conanesque game, and IME that is all you need to do if you want to bypass the early dungeon-grubbing game; start PCs with 5,000 XP or at 3rd level. It's 'still D&D', just as Dark Sun was still 2e.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-72297845042911191132012-07-28T19:04:10.207-07:002012-07-28T19:04:10.207-07:00Brendan wrote:
"So I don't think this c...Brendan wrote:<br /><br /> "So I don't think this comparison is valid."<br /><br />thats interesting, because I find a game that encourages you to roll up a dozen starting characters smacks of lethality and rather dismal prospects of much personal investment into any of their background history.<br /><br />all things told, i've only played the quick death, i mean quick start rules of DCC, myself.dervishdelverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13803513672258666141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-19760520984789183212012-07-28T18:56:28.099-07:002012-07-28T18:56:28.099-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.dervishdelverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13803513672258666141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-10357817621122986212012-07-28T18:30:32.303-07:002012-07-28T18:30:32.303-07:00Also, if you haven't read it already, this pos...Also, if you haven't read it already, this post is on topic and required reading:<br /><br /><a href="http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2012/01/evolution.html" rel="nofollow">http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2012/01/evolution.html</a><br /><br />Zak wrote:<br /><br /><i>The really successful games promise or suggest (though do not mandate) a specific kind of change will occur over the long haul.</i><br /><br />So I think there may be value in having the different types of play at different stages. They keep the game fresh. Just something to consider. Your tweaking might end up resulting in a game with too many moving parts at once.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-51458478050734851772012-07-28T18:27:52.983-07:002012-07-28T18:27:52.983-07:00But Joan of Arc didn't survive because she was...But Joan of Arc didn't survive because she was important to the plot. She survived because she was smart or lucky. You can try to be a prince as a first level D&D character (if you have a good referee), but you had better have a good plan.<br /><br />I think a lot of these points are just about lethality, which I think is an orthogonal issue. Even Napoleon should be afraid of death, in my opinion.<br /><br />The real thing here is, as you have noted, that possibilities open up in the wilderness and then explode with domain level play. The game very naturally funnels people from low power and few options to higher power and many options. Starting with higher power and many options leads to the problems of character optimization and system mastery. So if you want to change the game so you start out at domain level, I think you need some simplifications to make it more tractable (I'm not sure exactly where those might come in).Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-34201838515317545222012-07-28T18:21:54.971-07:002012-07-28T18:21:54.971-07:00A first level DCC character is a lot more resilien...A first level DCC character is a <i>lot</i> more resilient than an dead at zero HP B/X character. There is more death in the funnel, but that is a very small part of the game (and generally only occupies one session). It's not like the multiple sessions required to reach second level in B/X. So I don't think this comparison is valid.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-51039918468036423872012-07-28T18:18:52.212-07:002012-07-28T18:18:52.212-07:00Hedgehobbit wrote:
Finally, the main obstacle to ...Hedgehobbit wrote:<br /><br /><i>Finally, the main obstacle to Stage 3 is the fact that there are multiple players participating. What are the other players doing while you're out being Joan of Arc?</i><br /><br />This is a critical problem with domain level play. My understanding is that Gary and Dave started to run more one on one games for high level characters.<br /><br />I think there are probably ways to approach this that don't involve reunion dungeon crawls, but they probably require more structured domain turns.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-63415770272919036532012-07-28T07:37:39.472-07:002012-07-28T07:37:39.472-07:00oh, i forgot to add. you said,"The thing that...oh, i forgot to add. you said,"The thing that haunts me about this analysis (which seems accurate to me as well) is this:<br /><br />Is this the real basis for D&D’s popularity?"<br /><br />i would say, partly yes. look at the growing popularity of DCC.dervishdelverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13803513672258666141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-85085775877056765072012-07-28T07:28:37.433-07:002012-07-28T07:28:37.433-07:00hmmm....this was a pretty long post and i have to ...hmmm....this was a pretty long post and i have to admit to skimming over the last half. it sounds to me like your wrestling with plot development in your game. basically, we get more invested in the game the more the story unfolds. no matter how you approach it, this takes time. but, there's no reason your 1st level cleric can't enter epic expeditions if the GM is willing to tailor the story in that direction. it might involve paring you up with high level NPC's and going to it. maybe your a shield bearer or baggage carrier who ends up mixed in the forray? you may still die though-part of the game :).dervishdelverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13803513672258666141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-50461270038799746132012-07-28T07:15:08.900-07:002012-07-28T07:15:08.900-07:00You made very good points to where B/X can fail i...You made very good points to where B/X can fail in the eyes of a gamer. Long ago, I had the same frustrations until I made a few major changes to the game mechanics. The two biggest being more hp's at 1st level as well as opportunity of casting more spells. But even more important to those changes is the GM having his campaign world fleshed out enough to where the players can explore the landscape if they feel like doing more then delving into the same old dungeon.I.F.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04345074915911014741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-90105373243337887092012-07-28T06:56:27.156-07:002012-07-28T06:56:27.156-07:00For outdoor exploration, I divide all territory in...For outdoor exploration, I divide all territory into Civilized, Borderlands, and Wilderness (following the rules in the RC) and made separate encounter tables for each with civilized areas for levels 1-3 (basic), Borderlands for 4-6 (expert), and wilderness for 7+. This way low level characters can explore without encountering TPK monsters.<br /><br />Also, Bushido has two things that might help. One is a Status system, where you track a characters membership in an organization as well as that organization's overall status within the world. That way you can have political gameplay even if just trying to determine the leader of the Bakers Guild. Plus, by adventuring for an organization, whether it's an adventuring company, cult or noble family, you can improve that organization's reputation which, in turn, improves your character's standing in the world. Bushido also has a random encounter chart for participants in a battle. That way, characters can take part is larger wars without actually being required to own/command the army in question.<br /><br />Finally, the main obstacle to Stage 3 is the fact that there are multiple players participating. What are the other players doing while you're out being Joan of Arc? Stage 1 and 2 provide clearly defined roles for all the different people in the party. Something you don't get if one player builds a castle in the wilderness while the thief is trying to form a guild in a city.Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-35619851145619080832012-07-28T05:05:22.455-07:002012-07-28T05:05:22.455-07:00Hmm, a low level (and scalable) solution for all t...Hmm, a low level (and scalable) solution for all three stages... well, stage 1 is covered quite well. I believe it would be doable.<br /><br />Not sure about what this does to the game, either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-21937897776426588902012-07-28T03:33:14.068-07:002012-07-28T03:33:14.068-07:00fuck this! i hoped that you would present your rem...fuck this! i hoped that you would present your remedy in a fifth post.<br /><br />you tease! :)<br /><br />ps: i agree about 90%ish and i fear there is no solution. unless you count "play another system". i've got mine and it doesn't suffer from these problems. it's got skills though! :OAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com