tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post2650317006835922587..comments2024-03-29T08:03:16.892-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Changing StationsJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-35954196302749833202015-02-06T20:50:46.594-08:002015-02-06T20:50:46.594-08:00Well, not the way it ended up being played, but th...Well, not the way it ended up being played, but there's all the implied "endgame" that seems to point to it being the original point of the game/story. Heck, in BECMI/Cyclopedia it became a significant goal to pursue. OD&D and AD&D included a lot of notes toward that "endgame", as well.<br /><br />In a way, it's like people who play Monopoly without auctions. Certainly there is still a game there, but it isn't nearly as satisfying as the one that was written. In the case of D&D, it's maybe even still fun (perhaps even more so for some), but it makes the central premise of the game-as-written distorted.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-23712551869011810422015-02-06T10:19:54.528-08:002015-02-06T10:19:54.528-08:00@ Faol:
Certainly something had to lead to the es...@ Faol:<br /><br />Certainly something had to lead to the establishment of royalty in the first place. But such ain't your usual D&D story.<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-44849322024567739752015-02-06T09:12:38.728-08:002015-02-06T09:12:38.728-08:00D&d is by its nature post apocolyptic. All tha...D&d is by its nature post apocolyptic. All that buried treasure. The people who put it there are long gone. The means to get it easily through normal life are gone. What got rid of them? Something. Scott Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067161332003628237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-54623322349860171632015-02-06T06:46:53.044-08:002015-02-06T06:46:53.044-08:00The more I think about the Nibelungenlied specific...The more I think about the Nibelungenlied specifically, actually, the more I think that finding the treasure increases the social status of the finder. The treasure is the driving force behind much of the action in the poem, since Kriemhild spends the whole second half trying to both get the treasure back and get revenge for Siegfried's murder. But, importantly, because Siegfried won the treasure in the first place, he was on a social level with Gunther and so able to marry Kriemhild. That becomes a plot point, in fact, when Brünhild thinks that Kriemhild has been married off to one of Gunther's vassals (and so beneath Brünhild's station), but Kriemhild puts her in her place by producing the belt and ring and calling her Siegfried's concubine.<br /><br />I do think that there is a later period where treasure-seeking isn't a way for rovers to rise in status, and that is the later medieval period that most people think of when they think of "medieval times", but the disposition of treasure hoards is significant in the early medieval period that includes the so-called "Migration Era" and so on.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-70631192341704806062015-02-06T04:47:24.376-08:002015-02-06T04:47:24.376-08:00@ Faol:
I would say that the movements of treasur...@ Faol:<br /><br />I would say that the movements of treasure caches in these stories seem incidental to the real story. If you’re just examining the Nibelungenlied legend (rather than the 19th century Wagner opera), the treasure that Siegfried acquires from a dragon is a minor note, save that it gives our hero the wealth he needs to woo (King) Gunther’s sister…a princess. The looting of the dragon hoard in Beowulf in a denouement to the main story: the dragon is ravaging the countryside and our hero (as king) has a duty to stop it; Big B doesn’t go into the lair looking for treasure.<br /><br />While I agree with Fr. Dave that “looting and plundering was an ancient practice,” the concept of treasure seeking to rise in status (i.e the basic premise of D&D) is a pretty modern concept, and (upon reflection) one that seems strange in a traditional “medieval fantasy” sense. Not that we are using the game to recreate the morality tales of several centuries past, but we’re placing modern sensibilities on our (allegedly) pre-modern setting.<br /><br />I suppose I'm being too nit-picky: D&D certainly draws as much (or more) from the pulpy S&S fantasy of Robert Howard as from tales of King Arthur. I guess I just think it strange how MUCH the one is emphasized over the other, given the general premise of fantasy folklore.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-87741215750467257802015-02-05T20:11:47.034-08:002015-02-05T20:11:47.034-08:00I think that I generally agree that wealth, in and...I think that I generally agree that wealth, in and of itself, was not able to, generally, change a person's station in the time before the rise of the Middle Class in the wake of industrialization (though it could help, as you note, by opening doors of access not available to the poor), treasure seeking is certainly a part of many mythic cycles and magical practices from a very early date. There's a whole genre of magical rituals to find hidden treasure dating back as far as we have records of magical rites, for example, and contrary to what you say about <i>Beowulf</i>, a substantial part of early Medieval literature (see, for example, the Rheingold) is about the movement and (generally violent) transfer of caches of treasure. <i>Beowulf</i> itself ends with the dragon slain and:<br /><br /><i>"Next the wise son of Weohstan<br />called from among the king's thanes<br />a group of seven: he selected the best<br />and entered with them, the eighth of their number,<br />under the God-cursed roof; one raised<br />a lighted torch and led the way.<br />No lots were cast for who should loot the hoard<br />for it was obvious to them that every bit of it<br />lay unprotected within the vault,<br />there for the taking. It was no trouble<br />to hurry to work and haul out<br />the priceless store.…"</i><br /><br />This is, I think, because those stories developed in a background of looting-based economy in the aftermath of the fall of the Roman Empire. Which, of course, relates to the assumed background of D&D, where a sort of timeless vista combining elements of the early and later Medieval periods anachronistically is the general background. There's probably a discussion to be had there, where the assumptions that hidden treasure can be taken by roving bands of heroes collide with the rise of Feudalism (not to mention the presumption of a naive Capitalism, where "money" has an assumed value in itself instead of being a contextual medium of exchange) and create a pretty unstable background. Maybe finding a way to rationalize those elements is in order…faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-67158316267529386482015-02-05T16:12:08.578-08:002015-02-05T16:12:08.578-08:00Don't forget that there are also quite a few f...Don't forget that there are also quite a few fairy tales that kill off characters that try to change stations (take the original Little Mermaid, for example). Disney gave a lot of those stories happy endings that just don't exist in the originals.<br /><br />Tomb raiding is an ancient practice. Yes, it wasn't for the purpose of becoming a prince, but people have been hunting for treasure for a LONG time.<br /><br />Finally, D&D is at its best in a post-apocalyptic or frontier setting where station really doesn't mean squat.FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-30358403269058012962015-02-05T12:46:52.909-08:002015-02-05T12:46:52.909-08:00@ Alexis:
I am very familiar with the Arabian Nig...@ Alexis:<br /><br />I am very familiar with the Arabian Nights tales. However, while there are certainly individual protagonists that find wealth in the tales, I'm hard-pressed to recall a single one who sets out to find treasure in order to change his/her station except and with regard to marrying a princess. Even Ali Baba and Sinbad (who do discover hidden wealth in the "adventurer" sense) only return to the state from which they originally fell (both being merchant sons who lost/squandered their fortune). JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-74346154760887706832015-02-05T10:30:59.929-08:002015-02-05T10:30:59.929-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-13736610178273874392015-02-05T09:27:47.526-08:002015-02-05T09:27:47.526-08:00On the topic of treasure hunting, you are correct ...On the topic of treasure hunting, you are correct that most of it historically was wealth taken from the hands of real people. However there is an historical antecedent to the buried and secret lost treasure trope. After the Black Death in Europe, trade diminished. Especially in England, the mercantile system meant that there was less use for coins. People thought of them as valuable, but couldn't use them. So they buried them in the ground or in the walls of their homes. Even today in England, three or four hoards of roman and newer coins are dug up by hobbyists and builders every year. Scott Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067161332003628237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-17174375667978606602015-02-05T09:23:57.901-08:002015-02-05T09:23:57.901-08:00You are gracious and magnanimous. I am truly heart...You are gracious and magnanimous. I am truly heartened by your recap of the super bowl! I thought for sure we wouldt see you for a month or more!<br /><br />As a long time patriots fan who watched the game with a mixture of patriot haters, Seahawks fans, and pink hats there for a party, it was a gloomy scene at the end there. I appreciate you coming back so quickly afterwards. <br /><br />By the way, Seahawks are 5-1 favorites to win it next year ^_^Scott Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067161332003628237noreply@blogger.com