tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post1246305025985964551..comments2024-03-28T22:28:01.028-07:00Comments on B/X BLACKRAZOR: Disagreement On Every LevelJBhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-7639300622124813532021-08-13T15:26:30.737-07:002021-08-13T15:26:30.737-07:00> **FUDGING: if at any point a die roll indicat...> **FUDGING: if at any point a die roll indicates a result that the GM or group finds distasteful or undesirable at that particular moment, the result of the roll shall be ignored in favor of a different result.**<br /><br />Yeah, why not. That's not a house rule that I would be fond to play with, but as much as you or I can think it's "asinine", if there's a table that likes it, then it can be a legitimate house rule for them. Our opinions aren't gonna change the fact that they can play as they like.emarskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10733243569261035165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-81969587076408311802021-08-13T07:28:29.488-07:002021-08-13T07:28:29.488-07:00Oh boy.
"What fundamentally makes 'fudgi...Oh boy.<br /><br />"What fundamentally makes 'fudging' dice impossible to have as a house rule?"<br /><br />How would you go about defining a house rule for "fudging?" Let's try:<br /><br />**FUDGING: if at any point a die roll indicates a result that the GM or group finds distasteful or undesirable at that particular moment, the result of the roll shall be ignored in favor of a different result.**<br /><br />Does that suit the bill? It pretty much defines "fudging" and answers the standard procedural questions of how, when, and why the rule should be used.<br /><br />It's also asinine. Or lazy...take your pick. Why would one bother rolling dice in the first place, if the result can be overridden on a whim? Change the standard operation, change the rule, change the design.<br /><br />Don't like the wandering monster appearing at that particular moment? Why are you checking for wandering monsters? <br /><br />Don't like the particular wandering monster that appears? Why aren't you adjusting the chart?<br /><br />Don't like a saving throw being failed? Why are you calling for a save? Or using an attack that has a save? Or using a monster that has an attack that requires a save?<br /><br />Don't like the PCs missing the roll to find the secret door, hidden note, deadly trap? Why are you making them roll to find it?<br /><br />Don't like a character being reduced to zero hit points by an attack? Um...why are you playing D&D? That's the game. BUT you could still create house rules that A) increase character hit points, B) decrease damage from attacks, C) never result in "death" at zero hit points (instead resulting in unconsciousness, capture, maiming, inconvenience, whatever), or D) some or all of the above.<br /><br />Change numbers, change probabilities, change the type of dice rolled...or remove dice rolls from the equation altogether (for example: latter edition D&D's assigning of ability scores rather than having players roll 3d6). <br /><br />But don't "fudge." It makes you look like an ASS, a person who was either too stupid or too lazy to take the time to pick a game that fits their desired criteria of play and/or make the necessary corrections to achieve those desires. OR it makes you look like a CHEAT who simply can't abide the results generated by the rules of the game and must alter the rules to suit their whims of the moment...failing to consider that perhaps the rules were put their by the designer for good reason.<br /><br />You know what's fun to see in a baseball game? Some batter hitting a home run for your team. It's usually a cause for celebration. It's hard to do: not only does it require hitting a pitch, but the ball must both stay within the foul lines AND go over the back fence. If the flight of the ball fails in either of those two stipulations, it doesn't count as a home run. Should we fudge the rule to make a more "dramatic" game? Allow the umpire to call a foul ball a home run because it's the 9th inning and the home team really needs that run in order to go ahead, tie the score, or make the game "interesting?"<br /><br />Of course not...that's not how sport (or game) works. There are rules. We agree to a set of rules and we play by them. <br /><br />There are "games" out there that have are little more than loosely structured role-playing / story-telling exercises that allow for all manner of negotiated narrative authority...I own a couple myself. Why not play/adapt those? No fudging needed in a game that doesn't use dice, only procedural elements of narration.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-26506595853797292692021-08-13T05:28:50.664-07:002021-08-13T05:28:50.664-07:00I do not follow. What fundamentally makes "fu...I do not follow. What fundamentally makes "fudging" dice impossible to have as a house rule?McGrogenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11146196714336337882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-35739392570772691092021-08-13T01:29:26.738-07:002021-08-13T01:29:26.738-07:00@ Chris:
Here’s my difference of opinion: I do NO...@ Chris:<br /><br />Here’s my difference of opinion: I do NOT think “fudging” dice rolls are “pointless.” They are actually VERY pointed…they are disrespectful and contemptible of the game being played.<br /><br />And since I tend to be the DM (and it is thus my work and effort that goes into making the game) fudging dice rolls at my table is being disrespectful of ME and holding MY work in contempt.<br /><br />And if *I* fudge my own rolls. I am disrespecting MYSELF and my own time and effort. And I am just too old (and too proud) to insult my own dignity in that way.<br /><br />Maybe some DMs need more self-respect.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-30702608008714817382021-08-13T01:17:37.092-07:002021-08-13T01:17:37.092-07:00@ McG:
Okay. It seems like there’s a little misco...@ McG:<br /><br />Okay. It seems like there’s a little miscommunication going on here.<br /><br />“Fudging” dice rolls, as I think the term is generally used means: you roll a dice (based on a particular system/game mechanic) and then…because the roll landed on an undesirable result…you IGNORE that result in favor of an arbitrary one. OUTSIDE the rules of the game.<br /><br />A “re-roll” is an accepted game mechanic in MANY games. I played a game of Blood Bowl this evening (skaven vs. goblins and I won 3-2) that saw MANY re-rolls in the game, by both players, all per the strict function of the rules as to how and when they could be used. In BB, re-rolls are a RESOURCE and their manipulation is part of the tactics of the game.<br /><br />That’s not “fudging.” Is the difference really so unclear?<br /><br />If Cavegirl (or anyone) declares that each person at the table receives one or two or five re-rolls during a session, that’s just a house rule, no different in nature from me saying my AD&D game doesn’t use alignment and there are no stat limits based on sex/gender.<br /><br />I really don’t think that’s what Cavegirl (or any other proponent of “fudging”) is talking about. Fudging is cheating based on whim to come to a “better result,” a subjective idea that ignores the objective result gained by the use of a fortune mechanic. Might as well say the dice don’t matter…because they don’t. So why bother rolling them?JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-60516806489542682022021-08-13T00:57:55.462-07:002021-08-13T00:57:55.462-07:00The thing is, Prince, when I *do* embrace that “fi...The thing is, Prince, when I *do* embrace that “fire” (as I am wont to do) I often come off as sounding “mean.” Like a big meany. An asshole. A bully.<br /><br />And perhaps I AM all those things…but since that was the first time I’d read (and commented on) Cavegirl’s blog, I figured it best not to be my first stamp impression. On my own blog I can burn all I want…and she’s free to ignore it. No harm and I still get to express my opinion.<br /><br />Dude…it’s not like I want to stir shit up or something.<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-24966348557315653372021-08-12T14:12:22.946-07:002021-08-12T14:12:22.946-07:00To me, in my gaming old age, I find fudging die ro...To me, in my gaming old age, I find fudging die rolls to be pointless. As a player, I want the risk. Playing a character whom I know will survive any adventure because the DM is further die rolls takes away the tension. <br /><br />As a GM, I want the players to think and play smartly. If they know they're characters are going to survive no matter what, they get sloppy. Chris Nasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07023925427632508504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-51983141360119384962021-08-12T13:16:32.689-07:002021-08-12T13:16:32.689-07:00I find that writing a response while lamenting one...I find that writing a response while lamenting one is writing a response is a sign of cognitive dissonance. If there is, somewhere, a fire within you that demands you take up the gauntlet at Cavegirl's silly dice rules, then you should embrace that fire, strike without hesitation and do so unapologetically and without remorse. <br /><br />In the end, you will be judged for the result of your actions, and all the motions surrounding it are just theatre.<br /><br />Until Part II of Mortis Dei. PrinceofNothinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733680486570025367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-41341374673550772212021-08-12T11:28:23.469-07:002021-08-12T11:28:23.469-07:00Disclaimer – I do not fudge dice. Nor do I advocat...Disclaimer – I do not fudge dice. Nor do I advocate doing so.<br /><br />That being said, Cavegirl’s article is talking about playing with a house rule. Cavegirl has stated that there will be dice fudging when they DM. It has nothing to do with cheating or lying. There are published tabletop RPG’s that do have rules written for how and when to fudge dice (examples: Ryuutama, d20 Munchkin). This is not dishonest. This is akin to the reroll rules in Monopoly.McGrogenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11146196714336337882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-72632008923894159642021-08-11T14:06:38.239-07:002021-08-11T14:06:38.239-07:00You appear to be missing the point of the topic.
...You appear to be missing the point of the topic.<br /><br />“Fudging” a die roll means claiming the result of the die was something other than it was. Has nothing to do with arbitration or die handling.<br /><br />In Gygax’s arbitration example, a PC has met with death…presumably due to a loss of hit points or a failed saving throw. He is suggesting a substitution for the result of “death” that is equally penalizing.<br /><br />Fudging is not changing the method of rolling the dice, or changing the rules of the system BEFORE the die is rolled. If racist pieces of shit want to gerrymander districts before an election in order to ensure a racist piece of shit politician ends up in office come voting day, well then (unfortunately) we all have to live with the fallout of that.<br /><br />Just like a blown saving throw.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-42073711903951472021-08-11T12:25:06.422-07:002021-08-11T12:25:06.422-07:00I haven't done a survey or anything, but it co...I haven't done a survey or anything, but it could be as much as 50-50. All you need is justification to plausibly arbitrate a roll. Venger Satanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447932700800930510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-59154508775484328592021-08-11T12:22:56.349-07:002021-08-11T12:22:56.349-07:00But is Biden really the President if he won by fud...But is Biden really the President if he won by fudging?<br /><br />Dozens or perhaps hundreds of Democrat operatives fudged several die rolls in order to get that result. Illegally (by that I mean against their own state's Constitution) changing voting procedures just before the election, fraud (recounts are still taking place), fake news propaganda, and other irregularities (runaway mail-in ballots and ballot harvesting).<br /><br />That's not arbitrating the rolls, that's just cheating. Since it's not a game but involves real world consequences, I'm firmly against fudging when it comes to politics. Venger Satanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447932700800930510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-8087960818676869832021-08-11T08:41:24.858-07:002021-08-11T08:41:24.858-07:00@ Emarsk:
Um. Just because there are two sides ar...@ Emarsk:<br /><br />Um. Just because there are two sides arguing different sides doesn't make something "subjective." Something subjective is a matter of opinion. For example, Joe Biden won the U.S. presidential election and is now my president. There happen to be a lot of people in my country who disagree with this fact, who say that "Trump Won!" (and I just passed a large roadside banner stating this over the weekend), but the results of the election aren't "subjective;" they are OBJECTIVE and factual and one side is 100% incorrect.<br /><br />A subjective debate would be discussing whether Trump's four years in the presidency was worse and more damaging to the country than Bush W's eight years in the White House. People of right mind might differ on the subject, but unless some objective means of measuring is found, you're just comparing one rotten apple to another.<br /><br />Disregarding the result of a rolled die is ignoring an objective fact...it is violation of reality. If we have an agreement (in playing a game) that the die roll has meaning and contributes something to the procedure of play, then ignoring the result of the die is a violation of the game rules (its system). This is the very definition of "cheating" when it comes to playing a game.<br /><br />If we have a table agreement that a die result may be ignored at any time that it isn't convenient, then the rolling of dice (or the use of any other fortune mechanic) is a pointless exercise, not a procedural system or game mechanic. If the rule book says "you roll a D20 here; feel free to ignore the result and substitute your own" then why am I bothering to roll the die? In order to burn a couple calories? Because I am imitating a gamer? Because it brings back fond memories of my trip to Vegas? What?<br /><br />Ridiculous.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-30736067380480106172021-08-11T08:19:48.900-07:002021-08-11T08:19:48.900-07:00Ah...got it. Thanks!Ah...got it. Thanks!JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-81229162301958714632021-08-11T07:42:19.847-07:002021-08-11T07:42:19.847-07:00Catharsis is the release of strong and repressed e...Catharsis is the release of strong and repressed emotions; and thereafter the relief of same. Anyone who loses their shit during an RPG, who gnashes their teeth or pulls their hair, is undergoing severe stress from SOMETHING. The RPG fret is just a symptom of that stress and the need to release it.<br /><br />Which connects to the fudging, after all. People need their world to "go well," what with all the unpleasantness and unreliability of plans, hopes, dreams, etc. We can't control the hell that is work, family, health, getting to and from places, money, etcetera ... but we can control this stupid, disobedient die roll by acting as "super-entitled gods" for two seconds. So we bundle up all that lack of control and use it to subtly justify cheating at a game. Then we argue it out like this is one of the great questions of philosophy.<br /><br />It's pathetic, really.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-20165803011758910832021-08-11T04:59:20.970-07:002021-08-11T04:59:20.970-07:00Alexis is correct. The best RPG moments I've h...Alexis is correct. The best RPG moments I've had in my life were a result of a die roll made in front of an entire table — whether a good or bad result. It feels so good to let those emotions out <i>honestly.</i><br /><br />In contrast, some of my worst moments at the table all have to do with hidden/fudged dice rolls. Those emotions were not <i>earned</i> and therefore were never really expressed.FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-37906576374224353902021-08-11T01:25:36.757-07:002021-08-11T01:25:36.757-07:00I agree with pretty much everything.
Except for o...I agree with pretty much everything.<br /><br />Except for one thing. It is subjective. The mere fact that there's a debate is kind of proof of that, isn't it?<br /><br />If /everyone/ at the table is OK with fudging, I wouldn't call it "cheating" either: they just have a shared unwritten house rule that says it's OK to fudge. Their game, their rules.<br /><br />As for myself, I'm in the "don't fudge" camp. Accept the roll, or don't roll at all. If I feel the need, I'd grant a bonus or adjust the potential outcomes (like in the Gygax quote), rather than disregarding the roll.emarskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10733243569261035165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-25019731706490697872021-08-11T00:44:07.731-07:002021-08-11T00:44:07.731-07:00@ Alexis:
Your rants echo (and reinforce) my own....@ Alexis:<br /><br />Your rants echo (and reinforce) my own...they have, in fact, both informed and crystalized my thoughts on the matter. <br /><br />It's probably silly that we still (feel the) need to write these kinds of rebuttals. Ah, well.<br /><br />I'm glad things are good for you right now. I hope they continue to be good...best wishes to you and yours.<br /><br />Hopefully I'll find some joy here soon, too (dammit...really trying not to be melancholy). Maybe tomorrow.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-51291219282983463342021-08-11T00:37:57.372-07:002021-08-11T00:37:57.372-07:00Is it catharsis? I'm not sure I'd call it ...Is it catharsis? I'm not sure I'd call it that.<br /><br />[I agree catharsis is a good thing]JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-9224770442282474612021-08-10T22:27:23.018-07:002021-08-10T22:27:23.018-07:00We know what I think. Seems to me, the dozens of ...We know what I think. Seems to me, the dozens of times I've written this rant of yours, JB, my inbox fills up with people telling me how wrong I am. Maybe the world is changing.<br /><br />Things are good just now, for me anyway. So good that I hesitate to write about it; for days now I've been figuring out what I dare say and how positively I express it.<br /><br />Hell man, enjoy yourself.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-70876587519774993642021-08-10T22:23:14.009-07:002021-08-10T22:23:14.009-07:00You're describing catharsis. And catharsis is...You're describing catharsis. And catharsis is a good thing.Alexis Smolenskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539170107563075967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-33408846222857275412021-08-10T21:11:49.792-07:002021-08-10T21:11:49.792-07:00Yep. All that, too.Yep. All that, too.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-41301730410542096332021-08-10T20:29:00.751-07:002021-08-10T20:29:00.751-07:00I've enjoyed your comments on my posts of late...I've enjoyed your comments on my posts of late. <br /><br />Also yeah, I don't find Cavegirl's argument especially compelling either. Yes, there are styles of play where dice fudging is accepted and a part of producing a directed narrative - A CoC adventure where you must find a clue to move on is a good example. Also a good example of terrible adventure design.<br /><br />Of course that's the thing, you fudge dice (assuming you aren't a mean-spirited murderous GM exercising power badly) because the mechanics or scenario are broken, but if your system and game are working harmoniously with the play style you don't need to. <br /><br />Want the PCs to always survive - build that into your rules, balance it somehow to retain tension and fun. Need the PCs to find a secret door for an adventure to proceed? Write in how the secret door is easily found - maybe someone comes out of it and leaves it ajar or something, maybe it's not secret.<br /><br />Oh yeah and fudging dice makes the players distrust the Referee, system and their own agency.Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-24197804186829639272021-08-10T18:29:52.890-07:002021-08-10T18:29:52.890-07:00Again, I agree. And I think Huizinga would agree (...Again, I agree. And I think Huizinga would agree (his book is about play in general, not just games). He has a fairly good description of why cheating is frowned upon in games, as it goes against the rules of the ritual. <br /><br />The problem, I think, is that if the rules of the ritual are to have a cathartic experience akin to reading a good novel or watching a well made film, it's the dice that break the rules. <br /><br />So yes, might as well just engage in a group storytelling activity rather than an RPG if the ritual of dramatic catharsis is what someone is after. <br /><br />A game dependent on fortune mechanics may or may not provide that, and that's a different type of ritual to engage in.Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4143435314932633148.post-51049887102218462252021-08-10T17:27:38.104-07:002021-08-10T17:27:38.104-07:00Yeah. It's going around.Yeah. It's going around.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.com